Swedish minister eyes energy crisis steps, blames German nuclear phase-out • Hacker News Board

Re: Swedish minister eyes energy crisis steps, blames German nuclear phase-out

#91

Post by lawn » Mon, Dec 16, 2024, 10:58 AM UTC

willvarfar wrote: post #14

708145_ wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is still true what she says. Having an interconnected electricity system is problematic when countries like Germany misbehave by having a horrible energy politics. That said, it would had been better in Sweden if they hadn't phased out nuclear too! There is a electricity shortage in south of Sweden where industries are denied establishing new initiatives.

There isn't an energy shortage in Sweden? Sweden has an overproduction of energy, it is just generally generated in the north (where the hydro is) and consumed in the south (where the people are). The 'shortage in the south' is just a political lens for explaining the high prices from the introduction of energy zones in 2011. Before then, there was one price for electricity in Sweden and this worked to the benefit of…

Even though countries may have a net export it doesn't mean they're always exporting.

Re: Swedish minister eyes energy crisis steps, blames German nuclear phase-out

#92

Post by mantas » Mon, Dec 16, 2024, 11:04 AM UTC

guerrilla wrote: post #83

mantas wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what happens when government is pretty good for a long time and people get used to trusting it over multiple generations. This is the biggest cultural shock for 100%-eastern-european-me when I'm exposed to western europe. Why would people trust governments, media and so on? I'll never understand it. Do your own due diligence, prepare for the worst and brace for a beating from government which wants to sell you…

They somhow forgot thaat their grandparents FORCED it to be good. That struggle is no different than any other movie now though, just something that happened. They things can be good without making them good. Some kind of just world fallacy on a cultural scale. I'm with you. I came fro the US. Trust is earned.

Was it really forced though? In US, it looks like society was (and still is, although results vary) on the outlook but force needs applied all the time.

Meanwhile in Sweden, although I'm no expert of it's history, it looks like government itself decided to do good for shit and giggles. And then happily stuck to it's promise for generations. I've a similar feeling about other somewhat naive countries, e.g. Germany. It was outside forces after WW2. And even for mid-19th century one could argue that uniting German lands under Prussia was a somewhat outside force from perspective of a large chunk of Germans.

Re: Swedish minister eyes energy crisis steps, blames German nuclear phase-out

#93

Post by piva00 » Mon, Dec 16, 2024, 11:07 AM UTC

moepstar wrote: post #87

karmakurtisaani wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The past few days wind has been pretty bad. In the long term I think it will be good as battery storages are rising, but the next few years are still going to be tough.

> The past few days wind has been pretty bad. Except... it was not. Here. And somewhere, the sun is shining. People need to _stop_ thinking energy production is hyperlocal when, in reality, it is not. And never has been. Now, swedes are complaining, germans (i.e. me) are buying energy and raising prices. There will be a time, when they will import energy from us. Just as much as we exported energy to France when half…

> Now, swedes are complaining, germans (i.e. me) are buying energy and raising prices. There will be a time, when they will import energy from us. Just as much as we exported energy to France when half their atomic powerplants have been shutdown due to no cooling water available.

Sweden is pretty self-sufficient in power generation, most times I've checked the electricity interchange maps we are exporting electricity, never caught a moment where we imported significant amounts of it.

I'd very much like to not pay exorbitant prices because Germany's energy policies have been misguided, I understand suffering it during a time of crisis (like the Russian invasion of Ukraine) but right now it hurts on many fronts: German's proto-recession (caused in part by high cost of energy) affects Swedish exports since Germany is one of our largest importers; extremely high energy prices shuts down our industry; consumer spending goes down because people get uncertain about prices and buffer more against this uncertainty.

I really like Germany, and have been impressed by the rapid push to renewables after you got fleeced by believing in Russia but it's hard to shake the feeling of resentment on how slow moving your bureaucracy is because of industry's power over your politicians...

Re: Swedish minister eyes energy crisis steps, blames German nuclear phase-out

#94

Post by guappa » Mon, Dec 16, 2024, 11:08 AM UTC

mantas wrote: post #92

guerrilla wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They somhow forgot thaat their grandparents FORCED it to be good. That struggle is no different than any other movie now though, just something that happened. They things can be good without making them good. Some kind of just world fallacy on a cultural scale. I'm with you. I came fro the US. Trust is earned.

Was it really forced though? In US, it looks like society was (and still is, although results vary) on the outlook but force needs applied all the time. Meanwhile in Sweden, although I'm no expert of it's history, it looks like government itself decided to do good for shit and giggles. And then happily stuck to it's promise for generations. I've a similar feeling about other somewhat naive countries, e.g. Germany. It…

You have to understand that at the time communism was a real option. And while we now think they lived in poverty and so on, they didn't really have much worse conditions than the rest of europe right after the war.

So governments had to do social reforms to avoid revolutions.

The fact that now communism is no longer considered a viable option by most people is why now capitalism can go unchecked and reveal its true face.

Re: Swedish minister eyes energy crisis steps, blames German nuclear phase-out

#95

Post by Gud » Mon, Dec 16, 2024, 11:26 AM UTC

wkat4242 wrote: post #21

lawn wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Enough time? A nuclear reactor takes much longer than she's been at the office to build, and the Germans would still siphon off most of that electricity driving the price high nevertheless. Wind obviously wouldn't solve it (since, you know, the energy prices were so high because the wind didn't blow). The other actual solution would be something drastic like break away from EU energy market, is that what you're sugge…

The more obvious answer would have been to invest in national infrastructure to connect the hydro in the north to the consumers in the south rather than nuclear. Either way, she's responsible. The Germans are not. Their actions are an external factor she should have compensated for.

Ebba Bush Thor has been a proponent of nuclear power investments for a long time. She has only recently come into a position where she can improve the situation.

She is not at fault for Swedens disastrous energy politics.

Re: Swedish minister eyes energy crisis steps, blames German nuclear phase-out

#96

Post by sigh_again » Mon, Dec 16, 2024, 11:42 AM UTC

ivan_gammel wrote: post #88

sigh_again wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>yet you single out Greens as the primary culprits. Why? Did they sign Nord Stream agreements? You're incredibly defensive when all I have done is point out that saying "the greens aren't responsible for it" is a blatant lie. Especially when your purposefully ignore the next sentence, which still puts the blame on Merkel & Friends for continuing to implement it, in their case because it was lucrative to sign agreemen…

> You're incredibly defensive when all I have done is point out that saying "the greens aren't responsible for it" is a blatant lie And I didn’t say that. Who is defensive? > Aside from the fact that they have been on the offensive not just in 2024, but for close to a decade now (the Fessenheim closure has been demanded since 2016, green taxonomy started in 2020) 2016-2020 - Merkel government. Overall most of what yo…

> does it make sense to commit to fossil fuel for another 50-70 years again?

I now see that you have been arguing in bad faith since the beginning and should not have wasted time, down to repeating exact arguments from the greens that have, so far, proved to be wronged and dragged Germany into one of the worst emitters of Europe.

Good luck with your dreams, knowing you're dragging all of us down with you.

Re: Swedish minister eyes energy crisis steps, blames German nuclear phase-out

#97

Post by hurril » Mon, Dec 16, 2024, 11:52 AM UTC

willvarfar wrote: post #81

hurril wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here, let me help you: things should not have problems. There. Solved it :)

We can use the privatisation of water in the UK as a case study. The water companies in regions across the UK were privatised. Lots of big international companies borrowed lots of money to buy these companies. The water companies then borrowed large amounts of money, secured against their ability to extract rent from their customers, and the owners used that money to pay of the debt they had incurred in buying the wa…

You are derailing my question above with a whataboutism here and I am being downvoted for pointing that out.

There are problems with a lot of things in the world, for instance the rentier economy you mention here. But I don't owe anyone a solution to that just because I want to know which privatisations are the cause of the Swedish energy production and price crisis.

Re: Swedish minister eyes energy crisis steps, blames German nuclear phase-out

#98

Post by guerrilla » Mon, Dec 16, 2024, 12:03 PM UTC

mantas wrote: post #92

guerrilla wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They somhow forgot thaat their grandparents FORCED it to be good. That struggle is no different than any other movie now though, just something that happened. They things can be good without making them good. Some kind of just world fallacy on a cultural scale. I'm with you. I came fro the US. Trust is earned.

Was it really forced though? In US, it looks like society was (and still is, although results vary) on the outlook but force needs applied all the time. Meanwhile in Sweden, although I'm no expert of it's history, it looks like government itself decided to do good for shit and giggles. And then happily stuck to it's promise for generations. I've a similar feeling about other somewhat naive countries, e.g. Germany. It…

Yes, it was really forced by labor unions, tenant unions and other active forms of organization who were at the time very aggressive. People died over it. There were general strikes, sabotage and liter am armed conflict over it. Things would have gotten much worse if the business cartel had not signed the peace accord. That's why they did, because they were forced to.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saltsj%C3%B6baden_Agreement

> Meanwhile in Sweden, although I'm no expert of it's history

Stick to that intuition. Your story is far from accurate.

Re: Swedish minister eyes energy crisis steps, blames German nuclear phase-out

#99

Post by Xelbair » Mon, Dec 16, 2024, 12:12 PM UTC

tcfhgj wrote: post #82

Xelbair wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Risk is minuscule, and modern reactors actually shut down gracefully. Nuclear waste is an issue, but frankly - vastly smaller one than other kinds of pollution(CO2 comes to mind - and sulfides) used in generating or storing - which is the biggest current problem of renewables - power, and that can be stored in relatively smaller space. This kind of misguided thinking has stopped us from utilizing nuclear power proper…

Miniscule probability of high damage. Everyone, every power,has to decide on their own if one is willing to take this risk. CO2 isn't a problem of renewables. In Germany, the problem with renewables is massively scaling green gas production. Storage exists plenty fairly cheap, even for hydrogen (Underground).

never mentioned CO2 for renewables - i mentioned storing energy from them. that's the problem.

Re: Swedish minister eyes energy crisis steps, blames German nuclear phase-out

#100

Post by mantas » Mon, Dec 16, 2024, 12:16 PM UTC

guerrilla wrote: post #98

mantas wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was it really forced though? In US, it looks like society was (and still is, although results vary) on the outlook but force needs applied all the time. Meanwhile in Sweden, although I'm no expert of it's history, it looks like government itself decided to do good for shit and giggles. And then happily stuck to it's promise for generations. I've a similar feeling about other somewhat naive countries, e.g. Germany. It…

Yes, it was really forced by labor unions, tenant unions and other active forms of organization who were at the time very aggressive. People died over it. There were general strikes, sabotage and liter am armed conflict over it. Things would have gotten much worse if the business cartel had not signed the peace accord. That's why they did, because they were forced to. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saltsj%C3%B6baden_A…

IMO the trust between swedish government and people started waaay earlier when Sweden ended its imperial ambitions and the royal family focused on inside.

Agreements like above are important to labour rights, but it’s little compared to struggles other parts of the world came through. Just like labour rights are little compared to much bigger societal things like attempts to eradicate or assimilate whole ethnicities or force all sorts of social experiments on parts of the society. Where Sweden also has some history too, but it touched very small part of the society. And that society has very similar hostile feelings as far as I know.