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Why I have resigned from the Royal Society

deevybee.blogspot.com

91–100 of 121 posts

Re: Why I have resigned from the Royal Society

#91
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I took the time to read those Guardian links (sigh) and that's just misrepresentation. Vaccines: almost nobody refutes the scientific basis behind vaccines (not even talking about mRNA vs traditional), but trusting vaccine admission means trusting powers that have historically been quite evil (cf Tuskegee syphilis study, MKUltra, contaminated blood scandals in Europe and Japan, etc...). Elon's "meme" isn't about said…

The video that Musk posted with the vaccine efficacy numbers dropping from 100 to 50 is clickbait nonsense. As is the "shouldn't all the unvaccinated be dead" meme. On the myocarditis topic he consistently focused on the relatively tiny risks and brought up vaccines in the context of Bronny James for no reason other than to bait outrage. None of this befits a serious scientist such as the FRS aims to include in its r…

No, I agree with most of it, but that's what should have been written in the blog post and not by someone else on HN after the fact.

The meme, though, I wonder... I live in a country that wasn't as hardcore as some of the Commonwealth on the "forced vaccination" front so I don't identify with it, but there was certainly a lot of propaganda surrounding it in the wide world; on how people who refused were almost traitors shirking their civic duties.

Re: Why I have resigned from the Royal Society

#92
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If the RS doesn't expel people for their politics, then it doesn't make sense to expel Musk for, essentially, concerns about his politics. But the article does not talk about Musk's political opinion per se. The concerns would have been totally the same if Musk was acting the same way but involving himself with a different political ideology. The concerns seem to be: 1) Musk is aggressive towards his fellow scienti…

[flagged]

Promoting peaceful debate is arguably a core aspect of scientific integrity. My impression is that the author would be just as miffed by someone spreading misinformation about GMOs that leads to left-wing thuggery against crop research institutes.

Re: Why I have resigned from the Royal Society

#93
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The video that Musk posted with the vaccine efficacy numbers dropping from 100 to 50 is clickbait nonsense. As is the "shouldn't all the unvaccinated be dead" meme. On the myocarditis topic he consistently focused on the relatively tiny risks and brought up vaccines in the context of Bronny James for no reason other than to bait outrage. None of this befits a serious scientist such as the FRS aims to include in its r…

No, I agree with most of it, but that's what should have been written in the blog post and not by someone else on HN after the fact. The meme, though, I wonder... I live in a country that wasn't as hardcore as some of the Commonwealth on the "forced vaccination" front so I don't identify with it, but there was certainly a lot of propaganda surrounding it in the wide world; on how people who refused were almost traito…

> how people who refused were almost traitors shirking their civic duties

I wasn't quite that hardcore, but I did (and still do) find it difficult to accept refusals to vaccinate for seemingly little reason. It felt like some people were being stubbornly complicit in drawing out the pandemic and putting their contacts at higher risk. I guess it's a question of degree - how many lives does a collective behaviour need to save, before it becomes justified to mandate it?

Re: Why I have resigned from the Royal Society

#94
post #69

The whole episode is a nice and timely reminder of the difficulty of the society as a whole in dealing with scientists and understanding which ones are good, which ones can be trusted, etc. Academic societies such as the RS help, but as this shows they are by no means perfect, and can be gamed and manipulated when the stakes are high enough. It is a real challenge though -- how do you trust a scientist without having…

Elon Musk is not a scientist. He employs scientists.

But do general people know who is a scientist and who isn't? How do they find out?

It isn't by membership of a learned society, it isn't if they are working at a university. There is no simple way for a general person to know if somebody is a scientist.

Re: Why I have resigned from the Royal Society

#95
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Membership to the royal society is judged via candidates having made 'a substantial contribution to the improvement of natural knowledge, including mathematics, engineering science and medical science'.

By thinking, or by spending money?

Seems you kind of need people who are capable and willing to do both. Not too many Bruce Wayne’s and Tony Starks outside the comic books and movies who are able to both think and spend.

Musk’s value to science and technological progress is not his scientific intellect. Musk’s value is his ability to invest gobs of money in smart people and be patient for years for the returns on his investment to occur…and to be willing to fail.

I’m sure he is an asshole and I don’t care what political tribe he follows. I watch rockets fly into space pretty much weekly from my backyard. Feels like every third car is a Tesla on the road. His investment patience has had value to society.

Re: Why I have resigned from the Royal Society

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that I'm listening to Kennedy's The Real Anthony Fauci while typing this I have a hard time taking this seriously. Both the 'offend the alphabet community' (whatever that might be given that there is no love lost between the L and Q, G and Q, B and Q, L and T and G and T factions in this 'community') as well as the defence of Fauci, a person who declared himself representing The Science™ while recklessly trampl…

If the conspiracy theorist RFK Jr. is who you get your information from, I can't help you.

I get my data and information from many places, both officially sanctioned as well as those which are in opposition to those sources. I also use a good dose of scepticism when dealing with all sources, both the former as well as the latter.

Where do you get your information?

Re: Why I have resigned from the Royal Society

#97
post #86
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously I meant general fame, given I was replying to you saying you'd never heard of them. As for theirs relative to their peers: why would you expect to be able to recognise the relative value of their contributions? Unless you're also in a position to reject membership of the Royal Society, you're not elite enough to be able to tell if either of them is scientific elite . > Why should one listen to them, and tak…

> ...you're not elite enough to be able to tell if either of them is scientific elite. No, that is not a logical axiom. It can be possible you'd be able to evaluate things to be false, even though you don't know what the actual truth precisely is. To demonstrate this obvious point, I can fairly easily make an educated guess on the author's relative contribution to Isaac Newton and I don't need to be an FRS to do so o…

> It can be possible you'd be able to evaluate things to be false, even though you don't know what the actual truth precisely is

Only as a general statement, not when predicated on "this person is already in the Royal Society".

New members are evaluated by the existing group; unless you're good enough to be in it, you literally can't tell who is good enough to be in it.

Those on the outside are no better than Dilbert's boss saying "Mauve has the most RAM".

You're making the same mistake, in the opposite direction, as all those who say that Musk is just an idiot and a grifter with a lot of money. I have to point out to such people that he is well regarded as an actual rocket scientist — the point is, you can't put "well regarded" onto a concrete comparative scale without also being in the same league yourself, just as those who aren't in software development will put Linus Torvalds and Sir Tim Berners-Lee in the "who?" pile while praising Sid Meier and John Carmack because they wrote games they've heard of.

> It might be politically incorrect to state the obvious, but we all know it is true: both Musk and Newton are more important than the author.

Do you understand calculus — itself, rather than the historical context and power struggles — well enough to explain why Newton is more famous today than his peer Leibniz who contemporaneously and independently invented the same foundational concepts?

The point is not to claim that he knows nothing, but that this is a topic where you cannot even judge unless you're an expert yourself — otherwise you're pointing at PayPal having been a success and Musk having written code there and then making the mistake of assuming because it succeeded with him around then he personally must be a fantastic software developer when people seeing that have been quite adamant that he is not and when those of us who know the topic WTF at him wanting 50 pages of source code printed out.

Important in x ≠ the first to x ≠ competent at x ≠ famous due to x ≠ leads a team who did x ≠ rich enough to personally fund x ≠ sane, each is a different axis.

Even in retrospect, there's the question of if Newton was really all that much better than Leibniz or if it was mere politics that made him seem so — Newton was also Master of the Mint, so that aspect of "important" is unrelated to the other's aspect of "competence".

> Also, the whole point of publishing such an open letter is for the public to adjudicate the claim on their perception and thus pressure the RS to act based on public outrage, so to pretend the public opinion, i.e. what we think, is irrelevant here is preposterous.

Or to tell your friends. Or just to keep a public record for your own sanity to avoid gas-lighting, or to be able to say later "I told you so".

I blog, I have no pretensions of fame for what I write — even when I shared the (old, wordpress) links here it's seldom over 100 views, and that's fine.

> Sure, the only one who's paid someone to. If anything that makes it more impressive, not less.

If you wish to praise him for every success of his team, then you must equally blame him for every failure of his team. Other side of the same coin. To say that he, personally, should be rewarded for what his team did with his money is to say that he, personally, should be punished personally for every otherwise healthy monkey euthanised by errors that Neuralink, personally for riots organised on Twitter as a result of his changes to policy, personally for racism in his Tesla factories — and I say this equally but in reverse order to those who demonised him for all those things.

I would not blame him for all that, not personally. But I would not put him on a higher pedestal than Y Combinator either. And in science, I cannot judge him for my skills within the domain are not sufficient — I have but one paper with my name on it.

> The fact that I would have to do that is precisely my point.

Without googling, name the engineers who actually designed Mechazilla.

Without googling, say who told Musk, before IFT-1, that it was a bad idea to launch without a suppression system.

Without googling, do you know who or what convinced Musk to move away from evaporative cooling of Starship and back to more traditional heat shields?

Heck, without searching, if you can name even one SpaceX engineer, including those in launch live-streams and anyone you know personally then you're in an extremely unusually knowledgable position.

Leadership is a skill in its own right, that's why monarchs and presidents get to be on the coins, but it doesn't mean the person at the top is themselves good at the tasks performed by those they lead.

Re: Why I have resigned from the Royal Society

#98
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The vaccines worked and saved a lot of lives. There were very rare side effects, and once those were recognized they were addressed in various ways, e.g. by changing the groups that should receive the vaccines. The part about abortions sounds like a blatant conspiracy theory. There are some indications that the rules around gain of function research were not followed in some cases. I certainly think that merits inves…

> The part about abortions sounds like a blatant conspiracy theory. https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/was-covid-v... Many countries are stopping the vaccine/booster rollout to the pregnant. They make up funny reasons, but it's safe to consider they know more than we do and simply dont want the data out there. Govts and big pharma really do not want the data to be analyzed. And they should actually most…

> Many countries are stopping the vaccine/booster rollout to the pregnant.

Since you mentioned Japan, I wondered if you meant that country

> 【Q3】 Can I still get the vaccine if I am pregnant, breastfeeding, or planning to become pregnant?

> Yes, you can get the vaccine. There have been no reports that the COVID-19 vaccines approved in Japan has any adverse effects on pregnancy, fetus, breast milk, or reproductive organs. Vaccination is recommended regardless of the time of pregnancy.

https://www.mhlw.go.jp/stf/covid-19/qa_vaccine.html#:~:text=....

Maybe you meant Europe?

> Several studies have shown that messenger RNA (mRNA) COVID-19 vaccines do not cause complications in pregnancy, either for expectant mothers or their babies.

> On the contrary, COVID-19 vaccines protect expectant mothers and their babies.

https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/human-regulatory-overview/publi...

Maybe it's not funny reasons but funny countries?

Re: Why I have resigned from the Royal Society

#99

To quote him "Whereas previously he seemed to agree with mainstream scientific opinion" Can someone please explain to me how we managed to get a whole generation of the western scientific thinkers who think the scientific method is consensus of scientific opinion? The author lists Isaac Newton, Hooke, Boyle . All of these prominent minds made scientific breakthroughs that didn't stick to the consensus views of the ti…

> People interested should look at

People, evidence is, should be better educated in the History and Philosophy of Science (and in Mathematics and in Logic). It should be part of the mandated curriculum.

Re: Why I have resigned from the Royal Society

#100
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The vaccines worked and saved a lot of lives. There were very rare side effects, and once those were recognized they were addressed in various ways, e.g. by changing the groups that should receive the vaccines. The part about abortions sounds like a blatant conspiracy theory. There are some indications that the rules around gain of function research were not followed in some cases. I certainly think that merits inves…

> very rare side effects Still in these very days we meet random people who in normal random conversation tell us (as part of other matters) of coincidental devastating effects. How did you make that jump from "paper" to "reality", and hold it with the certainty of "a hedgehog here is vomiting on my shoes"? Do not bring us back to that long epiphany that the "dark ages" are still here, never gone.

> Still in these very days we meet random people who in normal random conversation tell us (as part of other matters) of coincidental devastating effects.

You may have. I haven't met anyone who has had any effects other than feeling mildly sick for a day or two afterwards. That's the thing about anecdotal evidence.

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