How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired • Hacker News Board

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#91

Post by neilv » Sat, Nov 23, 2024, 11:23 PM UTC

lijok wrote: post #6

Astonishing. Completely backwards. This article describes how to give feedback to your subordinates, not to your superiors. If your superiors are unable to process no-fluff information, regardless of whether it's feedback or updates, they have no business lording over anyone and will sink whatever function they have oversight of. If you find yourself working under such people, don't bother giving feedback, start poli…

I had much the same reaction. To put it diplomatically, the article's advice is all about diplomacy.

Much of their examples are a kind of diplomacy that you might use with a somewhat hostile, stupid, and/or petty person. Not in an environment of trust and respect.

Or with an enterprise customer, where "business politeness" is expected, trying to gain advantage is expected, and no one expects you to be very honest.

(Exception: In some cultures, it might be outright rude and mutually awkward to ever say anything critical-sounding upwards, or to offend someone by not going through the politeness motions, which would just be disrespectful. The article seems to be coming from some kind of environment or social expectations like that. I'm not talking about that here. I'm talking about, say, a US tech business environment that at least thinks it values speaking up with honest assessments.)

Ideally, management welcomes straight talk, and will do the right thing with it.

For example, if you've not been given reason to think the person above you is dishonest or unreasonable, and they haven't been given reason to think that about you, but you don't yet know them well, here's an example:

"The team is having some serious difficulty. Is now a good time to talk very candidly and constructively about that? ... Two things. First, I think that people are feeling that they don't have a good understanding of what the goals are, and how they're supposed to be prioritizing, on a daily basis. The other thing that seems to be bothering people is that onboarding is rough, and people immediately feel like they're not doing well, and then they aren't getting out of that feeling."

Note that this might sound a bit like some of the diplomatic framing of the article, in that it's not accusatory, but that's not what I'm doing. Some examples in the article attribute problems to the manager, and then use diplomacy, for cultural politeness, and/or to circumvent some pettiness they expect.

By contrast, in this example, I'm instead respecting the manager as someone who will take the information constructively. I'm also not presuming to attribute blame for the problems, since I don't have all the information about the situation, including not knowing everything the manager has been doing and why.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#92

Post by NAHWheatCracker » Sat, Nov 23, 2024, 11:31 PM UTC

inopinatus wrote: post #90

NAHWheatCracker wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you that's how it should be, but experience tells me that everyone is insecure and it's hardly correlated with position and job security. People lower down the chain are insecure because they could legitimately be let go at any time for any reason. People higher up the chain are insecure because any loss of face is debilitating. Especially having failings pointed out by someone "below" them.

I don't know what godawful chain you are hitched to but I hope you can find a way off it. High-performance managers realise they are there to enable the talent. You're Brian Epstein, not John Lennon. The job is to create the conditions for folks at the pointy end to be wildly successful. One of the most defining characteristics of this attitude is the maxim "hire people smarter than yourself", a very fine sentiment w…

I don't know you, but based on what you're saying, I guess you're in a much different environment than I've ever been in. You're probably also more of a "type A" person than I am.

I've always worked in places that are essentially established businesses. People are mostly bureaucrats and lazy. I believe that's a large majority employers. If you honestly can't understand that that's how a lot of people work, then I think you live in a bubble.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#93

Post by lupire » Sat, Nov 23, 2024, 11:31 PM UTC

kybernetikos wrote: post #14

Most of those examples (not giving enough direction, not training new hires enough, not being clear enough on priorities) are probably not going to be surprises for the person, and if you give feedback that shows you want someone to behave differently without having given some thought about why they aren't already then your feedback talks more about your own lack of experience and empathy than anything else. To give…

I don't think a manager will be impressed by a report saying "I know you can't do your whole job, so let me handle face time with the execs so I can take your job from you."

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#94

Post by lupire » Sat, Nov 23, 2024, 11:32 PM UTC

jayd16 wrote: post #89

palata wrote: post #42

In my 13 years of experience, I would say it's never worth giving feedback to your manager. Either they are good and it's useless, or they are not and they won't learn from you. I have come to a simple rule: if the manager is good, there is no problem. If the manager sucks (often that's because they lack experience, but it's all the same), just lie to them in order to preserve yourself. No need to have empathy for th…

So bleak. It's fine to protect yourself but your managers are people too. You _can_ build a report with them and be frank with them. When I manage folks, I much prefer honesty over someone who just bullshits you.

People who are busy thriving at work aren't hanging out in this self-pity party thread.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#95

Post by bradlys » Sat, Nov 23, 2024, 11:32 PM UTC

fcarraldo wrote: post #24

bradlys wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just due to an employee being H1B. It's that 80% of your peers are Chinese and Indian H1Bs who bring that culture of deference to authority into the US. I don't even feel like I'm working in the US when I'm working for any tech company these days. If I'm at ads for FB, I may as well be in Beijing. Some others, I may as well be in Mumbai. It would be nice to work with Americans/westerners for once and actuall…

In my experience, Americans are much more likely to see criticism as a threat or an insult than in most European business cultures, where blunt feedback is common. I’ve seen many teams in different companies led by Americans where simply pointing out that a plan will fail in a public forum is tantamount to spitting in their face. It’s absurd, and it destroys teams.

The gap is much bigger between Americans and Chinese/Indian than it is between American and European.

I’m not just talking about public forums. Saying anything to your superior (perceived superior or otherwise) would result in disciplinary action nearly 100% of the time. It is not even about blunt vs tactful feedback. It’s about any feedback. You do exactly what you’re told and you shut the fuck up.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#96

Post by inopinatus » Sat, Nov 23, 2024, 11:33 PM UTC

NAHWheatCracker wrote: post #92

inopinatus wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what godawful chain you are hitched to but I hope you can find a way off it. High-performance managers realise they are there to enable the talent. You're Brian Epstein, not John Lennon. The job is to create the conditions for folks at the pointy end to be wildly successful. One of the most defining characteristics of this attitude is the maxim "hire people smarter than yourself", a very fine sentiment w…

I don't know you, but based on what you're saying, I guess you're in a much different environment than I've ever been in. You're probably also more of a "type A" person than I am. I've always worked in places that are essentially established businesses. People are mostly bureaucrats and lazy. I believe that's a large majority employers. If you honestly can't understand that that's how a lot of people work, then I thi…

I cannot disagree with your assertion that the majority of employment environments have a toxic pathology of hierarchical insecurities, and I've certainly worked within them.

Albeit, yes, with a flagrant disregard for authority (I hesitate to label myself "type A", it's such a reductive term) that worked best when in the second and third decades of my career I was generally engaged on a consulting basis as a fixer/troubleshooter.

So I would admit guilt to an accusation that I have placed myself inside my current bubble intentionally. It's a matter of psychological safety and self-respect. I wasn't kidding when I said I hope you can find a way off that chain, it's an outcome I'd wish on all my peers.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#97

Post by lupire » Sat, Nov 23, 2024, 11:34 PM UTC

lisper wrote: post #2

Another tactic I like to use is a riff on the authors suggestion #3: “Is there a reason you did (or did not do) X?” This works because it’s framed as accepting the decision and being genuinely curious about the rationale. Often the answer is: no, I never really gave it any thought. Other times there turns out to be a good reason that didn’t occur to me and it turns into a learning experience for me. Another tactic th…

Your manager often admits they do bad things for no reason?

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#98

Post by lifeisstillgood » Sat, Nov 23, 2024, 11:34 PM UTC

inopinatus wrote: post #90

NAHWheatCracker wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you that's how it should be, but experience tells me that everyone is insecure and it's hardly correlated with position and job security. People lower down the chain are insecure because they could legitimately be let go at any time for any reason. People higher up the chain are insecure because any loss of face is debilitating. Especially having failings pointed out by someone "below" them.

I don't know what godawful chain you are hitched to but I hope you can find a way off it. High-performance managers realise they are there to enable the talent. You're Brian Epstein, not John Lennon. The job is to create the conditions for folks at the pointy end to be wildly successful. One of the most defining characteristics of this attitude is the maxim "hire people smarter than yourself", a very fine sentiment w…

Can I suggest there is a difference between feedback and therapy

We are all human, we have biases and blindspots.

Your trusted lieutenants can come to you and tell you you forgot to do X and because doing X is something either within your personality comfort zone or just outside it, you can if reasonably adjusted take that on.

But there will be things you are not reasonably adjusted for, things that require you to make significant adjustments to your world view and personality - things that you need to make serious compromises on

Some people are so maladjusted they cannot compromise on stuff most of the world agrees on - generally we call them criminals. But this is a spectrum - bad managers usually have very poor matching between their personal problems and the needs of the role.

But even good managers reach a point that their instincts and their rational mind cannot take them past.

In short “everyone is promoted to their level of incompetence” is not a skills problem, but a character problem.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#99

Post by cle » Sat, Nov 23, 2024, 11:36 PM UTC

zeroonetwothree wrote: post #78

cle wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If your superiors are unable to process no-fluff information, regardless of whether it's feedback or updates, they have no business lording over anyone and will sink whatever function they have oversight of. You're assuming that the subordinate's feedback is sufficiently important to the business. It might not be. It might also not be important to the business if subordinates leave b/c their feedback is disregarded…

It’s even more important to give it bluntly if the feedback is irrelevant. That way you’ve wasted less time. Me: “we aren’t giving enough guidance to new hires” Leader: “it’s not a priority for us since we are freezing hiring” Perfectly good interaction, where you didn’t waste time sneakily phrasing things you think you know better than the leader. And you learned some valuable info about the org priorities as a resu…

If the feedback is irrelevant, you'll waste the least amount of time by not giving it at all. (I think that's slightly different from your scenario though, where you don't actually know if it's irrelevant.)

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#100

Post by rdtsc » Sat, Nov 23, 2024, 11:40 PM UTC

lijok wrote: post #6

Astonishing. Completely backwards. This article describes how to give feedback to your subordinates, not to your superiors. If your superiors are unable to process no-fluff information, regardless of whether it's feedback or updates, they have no business lording over anyone and will sink whatever function they have oversight of. If you find yourself working under such people, don't bother giving feedback, start poli…

> If your superiors are unable to process no-fluff information, regardless of whether it's feedback or updates, they have no business lording over anyone and will sink whatever function they have oversight of. If you find yourself working under such people, don't bother giving feedback, start polishing your resume.

Sounds good on paper. Maybe true, oh 5 years ago. In this job market, polishing the resume is nice but you might have to deal with irrational superiors for a little longer. That's what the article is about.

> The reason you fluff up feedback to your subordinates is because lower down the chain they tend to be insecure and don't yet have the experience to distinguish between actionable impartial feedback, and threats to their job security.

It would all be nice and good if "subordinates" and "superiors" were some completely different, disjoint sets. Yesterday's insecure peers and your subordinates will tomorrow become your superiors. People who can - do, those who can't - manage. Their personalities and other qualities likely wouldn't change in the meantime. In a perfect world, everyone who is promoted to be anyone's superior will go through a strong leadership vetting process and they will take un-fluffed honest feedback from subordinates, without retribution. But I have yet to work for such an organization. Maybe you're luckier...