Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

How Japanese black companies oppress workers (2014)

tofugu.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

91–100 of 238 posts

Re: How Japanese black companies oppress workers (2014)

#91

Post by tgsovlerkhgsel »

papaver-somnamb wrote: post #88

On the point of Japanese companies shedding staff .. There is a friendly, win-win way to move skilled staff out of your company, but my impression is it's not widely known nor often occur. When a company finds that a particular staff member "isn't a good fit for the company" they will add this person to an informal list that is traded through back-channels with other companies. At some future time such personnel migh…

That only works if it really is a fit issue/the process is primarily used for fit issues, no?

Otherwise, why would a company headhunt an employee that is doing such a bad job that another company wants to fire them?

Re: How Japanese black companies oppress workers (2014)

#92

Post by d--b »

I worked at a onsen for a month in 2004. I was an intern learning Japanese so they were easy on me, but the ladies working there were doing 6.30am to 9.30pm, every day (including weekends), no pause. The hotel owned the apartments they lived in, and everything in the town was run by onsens, so there was no "job market" really to play. I don't know how much they were paid, but it didn't seem like they were rolling in it. Many of them were complaining about their husbands not working, drinking etc., so I can only imagine that at 9.30pm, they would actually take care of everything in their homes as well. One day, one of them just collapsed, and she was given a day off.

Yet, the workers seemed to accept this as "business as usual" and were generally good-spirited. They were totally screwed over by management, cause the hotel was really expensive, and they knew they were being taken advantage of. But such is the effect of culture on people.

Anyways, all this to say that I think that pretty much every job in Japan would be seen as the darkest shade of black in the West. And I can't imagine how awful the conditions must be for the blacker companies in Japan.

Re: How Japanese black companies oppress workers (2014)

#93

Post by lyall »

Daz1 wrote: post #57

this is mostly fantastical nonsense. I go home at 6pm everyday. go outside at 6pm and you will see businesspeople everywhere also on the commute home. also it is nearly impossible to fire anyone in Japan for anything

Black companies certainly still exist and still mistreat their employees—I know quite a few people that work a lot of overtime with no extra pay, experience パワハラ, are the longest tenured employee around after just one year because of the massive turnover... Just because some people (you, the other people you mention) don't experience this doesn't mean nobody else does.

Re: How Japanese black companies oppress workers (2014)

#94

Post by vkou »

rqtwteye wrote: post #77
teaearlgraycold wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

COBRA?

That’s super expensive. ACA is often better but that may change now with the republicans having control of congress.

> That’s super expensive

COBRA costs you exactly how much you + your employer were paying for that insurance.

It's expensive because your employer's share of insurance was a significant part of your compensation (And because US healthcare costs are pants-on-head insane.) I'll point out that it's generally quite expensive to, like, stop getting paid.

Practically, post-ACA, health insurance in the US is about as tied to employment as having a roof over your head and food on your table is. If you don't have employment, or money, you're going to be in trouble - but that's the case with everything you need to live, not just healthcare.

Re: How Japanese black companies oppress workers (2014)

#95

Post by jesterson »

Daz1 wrote: post #57

this is mostly fantastical nonsense. I go home at 6pm everyday. go outside at 6pm and you will see businesspeople everywhere also on the commute home. also it is nearly impossible to fire anyone in Japan for anything

> I go home at 6pm everyday. go outside at 6pm and you will see businesspeople everywhere also on the commute home.

Just because you see something doesn't make it absolute truth. Try go home at 11PM and you will see plenty of salaryman in trains sleeping on each other.

Re: How Japanese black companies oppress workers (2014)

#96

Post by dopfk09320k »

apelapan wrote: post #79
dopfk09320k wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have examples ? I have never heard European people being sued for quitting either. The opposite of at-will employment is not that you can't quit. Just that employers can't suddenly fire you without repercussions.

The termination period in a Swedish employment contract certainly applies in both directions. If you have three months notice period in your contract, your employer could sue for loss of income if you don't honour that notice period. It usually doesn't happen that way, because it is a waste of everyone's time and money. But, if some employer feels the need to set an example the option is there.

That is certainly supprising to me. I assume most people just deal with it by showing up but silent quitting ?

Re: How Japanese black companies oppress workers (2014)

#97

Post by papaver-somnamb »

tgsovlerkhgsel wrote: post #91
papaver-somnamb wrote: post #88

On the point of Japanese companies shedding staff .. There is a friendly, win-win way to move skilled staff out of your company, but my impression is it's not widely known nor often occur. When a company finds that a particular staff member "isn't a good fit for the company" they will add this person to an informal list that is traded through back-channels with other companies. At some future time such personnel migh…

That only works if it really is a fit issue/the process is primarily used for fit issues, no? Otherwise, why would a company headhunt an employee that is doing such a bad job that another company wants to fire them?

Yes cultural fitness reasons. Everything off the top of my head (drawing from experience) are exactly that. Two quick examples: Conflicts of character between them and their uppers along the report line. Being tossed aside for failure due to reasons out of their control.

But the staff member is still damn good at something, and is in need of a different venue to shine.

This shedding activity is referred to as the child's playing-card game "baba-nuki" (Old Maid). You are drawing a card from the other company's hand but don't know what card it is because they aren't showing you the face side. There is an emotional element to it (as with nearly everything else here) but also, maybe most importantly, Japanese society is quite fluid this way, it's one of the country's strengths. Everybody can understand if it is explained to them.

Re: How Japanese black companies oppress workers (2014)

#98

Post by CalRobert »

jandrewrogers wrote: post #11
infotainment wrote: post #2

> "I can't quit the job. If I say I'm going to quit, I'll be threatened that I will have to pay damages for quitting." Interestingly, this is actually possible under Japanese law/legal precedent. If an employee, for example, decides to put in notice and then half-ass their job until their departure date, a company could actually sue the employee and win. Other Japan-labor-law fun fact: if you are a contract worker, i…

The majority of developed countries have subtle versions of this. I was naive about this before I worked outside the US and saw the practical impact. The chains go both ways and have real downsides. Having seen the perverse incentives this creates and the various ways in which it can be abused, I have come to the conclusion that the American “at-will” employment model is actually a good thing and benefits workers. No…

I was stunned when I realised my Irish work contracts had a forced notice period, not just a courtesy. Accenture uses this as a tool to stop people quitting - forced three month notice even for super low level employees. Makes it hard to interview for new jobs!

Re: How Japanese black companies oppress workers (2014)

#99

Post by [deleted] »

apelapan wrote: post #79
dopfk09320k wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have examples ? I have never heard European people being sued for quitting either. The opposite of at-will employment is not that you can't quit. Just that employers can't suddenly fire you without repercussions.

The termination period in a Swedish employment contract certainly applies in both directions. If you have three months notice period in your contract, your employer could sue for loss of income if you don't honour that notice period. It usually doesn't happen that way, because it is a waste of everyone's time and money. But, if some employer feels the need to set an example the option is there.

[deleted]

Re: How Japanese black companies oppress workers (2014)

#100

Post by walthamstow »

dopfk09320k wrote: post #43
jandrewrogers wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW, I don’t have any experience in Japan, I have no idea what the nuances are like there. I have a lot of experience in Europe, which echoed some of the themes raised.

Do you have examples ? I have never heard European people being sued for quitting either. The opposite of at-will employment is not that you can't quit. Just that employers can't suddenly fire you without repercussions.

In the UK, an employee can't legally walk off the job without notice but it does happen albeit rarely. Nobody ever sues them. The only reason people don't do it more often is so they have a reference for their next employment.

The more common way to do this these days is to feign an illness like stress and get signed off work, paid, by the doctor, then quit later.

Post reply on HN