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Why did people rub snow on frozen feet? (2017)

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Re: Why did people rub snow on frozen feet? (2017)

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> don't think its smart to act like we are somehow at the pinnacle of human knowledge and nothing we've done before can be more effective than what we know works now Sure. Population growth is exponential. Deifying ancient knowledge is over-attributing knowledge to when we had little in both knowledge per person and persons per se . Sanctifying traditional medicine means you’re out of ideas. You aren’t bad. But move…

See my above comment

Still deifying traditional practice. Trepanation doesn’t do anything for seizures. Was commonly prescribed for them. We stopped doing that after discovering what caused them. The list goes on and on.

Re: Why did people rub snow on frozen feet? (2017)

#93

When I was a kid we’d be spending a whole day playing in snow. When we’d come home in the evening with ice on the shoes, hair and cold hands and feet - but not as bad as getting real frost bites - would have a little warm up. My grandmother taught me to wash my hands with cold water at first then gradually add warm water. I still remeber cold water felt warm on frozen hands. Also many times when my hands were cold I’…

I think the "cold water first" thing is mainly to avoid scolding your skin while you're numb.

But man do I not miss the pain of coming home from ski practice and finally getting off the tight boots, feeling the warmth and blood finally return to my feet. Burned as hell.

Re: Why did people rub snow on frozen feet? (2017)

#94

I can easily see where you would get the idea to rub snow on the tissue from my own experiences with second degree frostbite. I did lukewarm water and that hurt . It felt like my hands were going to explode. Every impulse was screaming that it was exactly the wrong thing to do and I should go back outside where the pain was less.

Also from hypothermia the impulse is that direction, once when I got it I became so incredibly hot that I wanted to dress naked. If I hadn't known the signs I probably would have.

Re: Why did people rub snow on frozen feet? (2017)

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can’t feel anything on that side of your big toe after how long? Is full recovery ever expected?

Since OP isn't responding, I'll add that I completely lost feeling in the nose about ten years ago by staying outside in −45°C for way too long, and it never recovered. The front half feels like it's permanently under anesthetic. Other than that, it looks and works as it always did. I didn't even notice anything until three passerby in a row said that my nose looks funny and I should probably do something about it AS…

You’re right, the sensation never came back for me. It’s the outer half that was exposed to the side of my boot.

My feet were too cold to notice that water got inside my boot, then by the time my toes were freezing there was no way my nerves could let me know. I only spent around 4 hours like that, but it was enough. It wasn’t even painful until the moment it went into the shower so I had no idea what was going on even once I got home into a warm house. It’s sneaky stuff.

I do remember being creeped out by how white and immobile my toes were. I knew that wasn’t great, but I didn’t think they’d literally begun to freeze. I’m a lot more careful now.

Re: Why did people rub snow on frozen feet? (2017)

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had the same experience. I stepped into a hot shower with frostbite in two of my toes (just half of my big toe and bit of the the next toe over) and I inadvertently screamed and fell over, ripping the shower curtain down and everything. I wanted out badly. There’s no aching sensation quite like it that I’ve experienced. I’d definitely fail the gom jabbar. I still can’t feel anything in that side of my big toe, and…

You can’t feel anything on that side of your big toe after how long? Is full recovery ever expected?

No recovery expected, and it has been 20 years this January.

Re: Why did people rub snow on frozen feet? (2017)

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what does that actually look like in practice, lifting the piece of rubble an inch at a time? How slowly would you release a tourniquet in that situation?

I'm not a medical doctor, but my understanding is that in the scenario of "patient's limb has been trapped/crushed for an extended period and can now be freed" you're supposed to tourniquet off the limb before freeing it. This helps both for delaying reperfusion issues until the patient can be in the hospital with IV lines in place, and also in case there's an injury which could cause massive blood loss (since a trap…

Yes, this is correct.

Re: Why did people rub snow on frozen feet? (2017)

#98
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

nope, the evidence is pretty clear on prayers: they don't work. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2802370/#:~:text=We... .

The article you've linked describes multiple medical benefits of prayer. By "they don't work", do you mean "the observed benefits are explicable without divine intervention"?

no I mean that they are not reproducible and don't show up in randomised controlled trials without intellectual dishonesty.

Re: Why did people rub snow on frozen feet? (2017)

#99
post #78
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you wear gloves, you'll always wear gloves - annec-data from the crew I used to go out with catching shorebirds, in Scotland, in the middle of winter. The glove wearers we unable to function within an hour of taking them off to band, measure and release the birds. The non-glove wearers were able to keep going for as long as it took.

For some people[1], when their body temperature drops below a certain point, circulation in hands and feet is reduced. This helps heat the body core, saving organs while potentially sacrificing hands or feet. At first this feels like a burn, then like someone's putting needles into your hands, and then they just go numb. You can't do precise actions with your hand anymore and soon you'll lose most of the ability to m…

Do you have a citation for this ? I experience Reynaud's and it's more than a bit worrying.

Re: Why did people rub snow on frozen feet? (2017)

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people trepanned with pre-modern medicine in the regions quoted below did not die , "It is a well-documented procedure in Oceania and Africa well into the twentieth century, with an estimated survival of more than 90%. There is good documentation of the tools used and of the antiseptic precautions regularly taken by witch doctors." [0] And by that logic we know that these procedures must've worked since they did…

For every traditional medicine that was proven there are more that were disproven. The paradigm shift wasn’t in the 1950s but in the Age of Enlightenment. The discovery was the scientific method. The point about trepanning wasn’t that it was deadly but that it is wrong. It doesn’t help the underlying problems. The answer to why people keep doing it is desperation and the immune system works, which means most illnesse…

>It doesn’t help the underlying problems

If the complication was a subdural hematoma then similar procedures are still the standard of care today, and certainly we wouldn't be drilling to people's skulls as treatment if our ancestors never did anything similar.

>The discovery was the scientific method.

The "scientific method" is for use in objective science like measuring the speed of light. Until the patient dies, medical care is subjective. Its like with this recent election, telling a bunch of people that the "economy is good" doesn't matter if they themselves don't feel that way. In just the same way, 60 or 70 years ago someone from a developed country could've come into the undeveloped world and removed cancerous tumors by using surgical procedures that left someone with permanent disabilities, but maybe their witch doctor would've used some strange treatment that looked crazy and stupid but actually triggered a global immune response that not only removed the cancer but left the patient with a better outcome since they suffered no permanent side effects from the treatment, one which would be considered "more advanced" by today's standards, but wasn't even considered by the developed world back then. That one might claim something is "objectively" fact is only possible subjectively, and the hubris of believing that your subjective stance, even when accompanied by evidence, is absolutely true, will lead you to discount almost anything that stands outside of it as "unscientific." But you yourself cannot possibly die in your own experience, even though death is the condition of possibility for true objectivity, so until you reach that moment which never comes, you are constantly grappling with this dialectical approach to the world that constantly reshapes and reformulates itself in relation to all the experiences, feelings, and memories that you have.

>The answer to why people keep doing it is desperation and the immune system works, which means most illnesses work themselves out, including after the ineffective intervention.

It's true, but as I said most medical practices today are still derived from pre-modern medicine, even if they have been improved upon. One could make the same argument for much of what we do, since measuring outcomes won't always be able to differentiate between patients who get better on their own and those who improve with the treatment, since most treatments besides pills are impossible to test in a double blind study (you don't see double-blind studies for heart surgery techniques, for instance). Doctors do a lot based on their feelings about whats up and what they think works, far more than you are probably comfortable with, simply because there is no alternative besides constant self-criticism and research. That's why case studies are so important in the medical field, since they offer a subjective approach to the objective circumstance using objective tools that are determined subjectively.

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