Freelancing: A 6-Month Retrospective • Hacker News Board

Re: Freelancing: A 6-Month Retrospective

#91

Post by plinkplonk » Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 4:18 AM UTC

42_huh wrote: post #90

plinkplonk wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in Bangalore. Did 'freelancing' for >10 years. Now doing a spot of product dev (so not doing that anymore). I know many people who do (and drop back into BigCo jobs for a year or two when they want to take it easy for a while). Lots of people freelance in Bangalore. The key is to have some kind of specialized skill (design,analytics, etc) - vs generic web stack (J2EE, RoR etc) skills.

Hey! Great to know that I was wrong! Do you know a lot of people doing it/did it, or are you an exception? And who were you clients, i.e, were your clients Indian companies or are people in the US, UK etc ready to invest in freelancers in India. And did it pay well enough for other people to consider it?

I've worked for both Indian and US 'companies' (quotes because some were research labs etc).My 'clients' were people who came looking for me because they know someone who recommended me. I never did any marketing and have no skills therin, and probably would botch it if I tried.

I am not an exception.I know tonnes of people who do 'freelancing', though most of them end up starting small companies to take care of taxes etc. (they do much better marketing than I do) and work on a time and materials (x $/hour) basis (I don't). They work for companies in the US/Europe. With rare exceptions, it doesn't make economic sense to work for Indian companies, though it depends on the value you can add. Pays much better than the BigCo salaries (I know people making more than 100k US $).

The hard thing is establishing a reputation for competence, since with so many body shopping companies (Infosys, TCS etc) hiring (literally) battalions of borderline incompetents, "Indian developer" has come to be synonymous with "incompetent fraud" in many people's minds in the west (can't blame them, really), especially in the outsourced context. Standing out in this sea of ultra cheap incompetence takes a lot of work. The ability to communicate well (both oral and written) in English is critical.

All that said, here is some free advice. If you don't have any specialized skills, are not prepared to work really really hard (much harder than in your usual Indian Bigco), don't (personally) know any potential clients, don't jump into freelancing. It is not easy.

By the time I was ready to quit the 9 to 5 BigCompany grind, I had many offers to freelance. I just got lucky and I am really the wrong person to give advice on how to freelance in India.

And that is all I have to say. Cheers.

Re: Freelancing: A 6-Month Retrospective

#92

Post by wtracy » Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 4:35 AM UTC

epoxyhockey wrote: post #7

ZanderEarth32 wrote: post #2

Very nice look at making the move. I freelance on the side now, but I might look to do this in a couple of years if things go (or don't go) well with my next move. Health insurance wise, we're you able to get coverage for yourself, or are you participating in a COBRA plan from your previous employer? To be honest, health insurance is probably the one thing that would keep me employed in regular salaried position. The…

There are a couple of options for health insurance. If you have a spouse who has health insurance through their job, you can join their health insurance plan. If you want to go solo, I've had good success with using ehealthinsurance.com. When I was laid off from a job a few years ago, I compared the COBRA price to ehealth, and I found COBRA to be priced about 4 times higher than if I chose a similar plan from ehealth…

I've been worried about getting labeled with "pre-existing conditions" that won't be covered if I go that route, for things that I'm currently covered for. Can anyone comment on that?

Re: Freelancing: A 6-Month Retrospective

#93

Post by donw » Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 4:46 AM UTC

r00fus wrote: post #28

donw wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm also a consultant, and use Kaiser in California. I'm paying about $160 a month for full coverage. Although my plan does have a $2000 deductible, preventive care is free, so other than my premiums I haven't had to cough up anything yet.

What about prescription drug coverage? What are your copays for non-generic vs. generic?

That I can't answer, as I haven't needed to get a prescription for anything in awhile.

Re: Freelancing: A 6-Month Retrospective

#94

Post by codenerdz » Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 5:10 AM UTC

wtracy wrote: post #92

epoxyhockey wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a couple of options for health insurance. If you have a spouse who has health insurance through their job, you can join their health insurance plan. If you want to go solo, I've had good success with using ehealthinsurance.com. When I was laid off from a job a few years ago, I compared the COBRA price to ehealth, and I found COBRA to be priced about 4 times higher than if I chose a similar plan from ehealth…

I've been worried about getting labeled with "pre-existing conditions" that won't be covered if I go that route, for things that I'm currently covered for. Can anyone comment on that?

We'll see what the outcome of ObamaCare in regards to pre-existing conditions, but the way things are right now, if you go with an individual insurance(i.e. not part of a larger company's group plan), should you develop a medical condition, you will eventually be priced out of cheaper "risk categories", i.e. your insurance costs will be increasing year after year and you wont be able to change plans into other competitive healthcare plans because they will deny you due to these pre-existing conditions. Many states, including california, provide special plans for those who are denied coverage elsewhere, but they are ridiculously expensive(think over a $1k per month per person). If you have a family and your spouse doesnt have insurance, healthcare could be an expensive gamble...

Re: Freelancing: A 6-Month Retrospective

#95

Post by patio11 » Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 5:24 AM UTC

theoj wrote: post #87

>> So as an example, a $100K salary, which corresponds to roughly $50 per hour working 40 hours a week, requires a freelancing rate of $56-58/hour to pay for healthcare and time off. Cringe -- this is bad advice for setting your consulting rate. In the US, the full cost of an $100K employee is not $100K. It's $100K salary + paid vacation time + employment taxes paid by employer + healthcare + office space & pro-rated…

Keep in mind that those guesstimations are for determining the floor rate one would ask for to maintain an expected standard of living, rather than determining the rate one would actually ask for. Your rate should be whatever you can convince people to pay you, and that can be a number well north of $90/hr.

(While I love HNers, one should not rely on HN salary surveys to set one's rates. There are many factors that drag it down: HN has a global audience but you do not have to sell to global consumers of programming talent. HN, in other surveys, frequently skews to young and inexperienced -- you may not be young and inexperienced. Many HNers are unsophisticated about pricing to extract value from mutually beneficial business relationships -- you should not be unsophisticated in this manner. Many HNers occupy positions which are low on the value chain such as undifferentiated "web design" which do not command high hourly rates -- you should upgrade your skillset or marketing such that you can command higher hourly rates. etc, etc)

Re: Freelancing: A 6-Month Retrospective

#96

Post by edanm » Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 6:48 AM UTC

patio11 wrote: post #95

theoj wrote: post #87

>> So as an example, a $100K salary, which corresponds to roughly $50 per hour working 40 hours a week, requires a freelancing rate of $56-58/hour to pay for healthcare and time off. Cringe -- this is bad advice for setting your consulting rate. In the US, the full cost of an $100K employee is not $100K. It's $100K salary + paid vacation time + employment taxes paid by employer + healthcare + office space & pro-rated…

Keep in mind that those guesstimations are for determining the floor rate one would ask for to maintain an expected standard of living, rather than determining the rate one would actually ask for. Your rate should be whatever you can convince people to pay you, and that can be a number well north of $90/hr. (While I love HNers, one should not rely on HN salary surveys to set one's rates. There are many factors that d…

Where can one find good statistics on this issue?

My consultancy is now starting to take on American clients, and I'm trying to understand what the average market condition is like to know where to start ourselves off.

Re: Freelancing: A 6-Month Retrospective

#97

Post by patio11 » Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 7:06 AM UTC

edanm wrote: post #96

patio11 wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keep in mind that those guesstimations are for determining the floor rate one would ask for to maintain an expected standard of living, rather than determining the rate one would actually ask for. Your rate should be whatever you can convince people to pay you, and that can be a number well north of $90/hr. (While I love HNers, one should not rely on HN salary surveys to set one's rates. There are many factors that d…

Where can one find good statistics on this issue? My consultancy is now starting to take on American clients, and I'm trying to understand what the average market condition is like to know where to start ourselves off.

That strikes me like "Dating advice: Explain to the average woman that accompanying you to the average restaurant followed by an average movie would make for an average evening."

Re: Freelancing: A 6-Month Retrospective

#98

Post by edanm » Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 7:08 AM UTC

patio11 wrote: post #97

edanm wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where can one find good statistics on this issue? My consultancy is now starting to take on American clients, and I'm trying to understand what the average market condition is like to know where to start ourselves off.

That strikes me like "Dating advice: Explain to the average woman that accompanying you to the average restaurant followed by an average movie would make for an average evening."

Yes, but to explain why we're worth X% more than the average developer/freelancer, I need to know how much they make in the first place!

Re: Freelancing: A 6-Month Retrospective

#99

Post by alinajaf » Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 8:09 AM UTC

MattRogish wrote: post #86

alinajaf wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only thing you're missing out on is the ability to work on and towards your own projects. Not sure about the average freelancer, but most technical freelancers I know see it as a stepping stone towards getting their own little SaaS or iPhone app business off the ground. If you're working full-time for a company, IME contracts tend to own all intellectual output at your time there, at home or otherwise. This doesn't m…

That's insane. I'd never work at a place that required me to signaway my rights. You reap what you sow.

Interesting, I take it this is not the norm in the US (I'm assuming that's where you're located).

Re: Freelancing: A 6-Month Retrospective

#100

Post by krautsourced » Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 8:16 AM UTC

tluyben2 wrote: post #60

skrebbel wrote: post #57

Guys, a question about this: reading HN, I have the feeling that in USA freelancers are a pretty common phenomenon in software. Where I work (Netherlands), all freelancers I know are working full-time 2 year projects anyway, not at all getting them the flexibility articles like these refer to. They mostly get paid more than the employees, in exchange for less job security and having to invest in education themselves.…

Friends of mine in the Netherlands (i'm Dutch) who freelance are like me; once starting to freelance you rather work MORE than less. Not for the money but for the freedom of being able to take on whatever you like. And then ofcourse you don't like it anymore as you end up doing way to much. Jobs protect you from that (or should). I don't know how that is in the US and would like to know as well. It's very possible in…

It's the same with Freelancers in Germany (at least the ones I know). I've been working way more hours since I went freelance, however, only a fraction of them paid, since there is a significant overhead to doing freelance work (acquiring jobs, dealing with clients, chasing bills, taxes (those alone are a full-time job in Germany, sigh)). I think I went from about 40h in my full time job to roughly 60h now. That said, I'm happier than ever before with my job. Because it makes a hell of a difference if you spend your time doing what you love instead of wasting away in a corporate office. And you will not even notice how much time you're spending on it. A 20h week though - that only works if you are able to command a very high hourly/daily rate. The segment I work in, unfortunately, does not.