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Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

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Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#91

Post by Rohansi »

darknavi wrote: post #53
arp242 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's impossible to prevent cheating from the server-side only. Something like an aimbot can operate purely on information you need to have as a client (to render the other players on the screen), and still be a huge advantage because it can respond faster than any human can.

Client Server architecture can still take you a long way. Culling what you send to the client and relying less on client-side "hiding" of state, server authoritative actions with client-side prediction, etc. At the end of the day someone could be using hardware "cheats" but you can get down to a pretty good spot to stop or disincentivize cheaters without running rootkits on their devices.

Latency significantly reduces the effectiveness of culling via the server. There will always be a place for client side anti-cheat if games are running on players' computers.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#92

Post by jsheard »

ChocolateGod wrote: post #74
jsheard wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It only works on Linux if the developer allows it, because it's not nearly as effective on Linux. Rust (the game not the language) uses EAC but doesn't run on Linux by choice for example. Neither does Fortnite. Apex Legends uses EAC and does run on Linux, and now nearly every public cheat for that game targets the Linux version because it's such a soft target. I don't really like the status quo of installing random k…

> game targets the Linux version because it's such a soft target. I was going to say games on Linux should require secure boot so cheat kernels and modules can't run, but then the kernel could just lie about it being enabled.

Most Linux cheats don't even bother with kernel modules, a process running as root can read and write arbitrary memory in the game process without an unprivileged usermode anticheat having any way to know it's happening. It's embarrassingly easy compared to the hoops you have to jump through to maybe avoid detection on Windows.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#93

Post by ThatPlayer »

ZYbCRq22HbJ2y7 wrote: post #87
Thaxll wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cheats and bots are ruining online games though.

Back when communities hosted servers instead of companies, it seemed less common, even though it was easier to do.

Because games were less common. If you look at community hosted servers now they commonly have more anti cheat, not less. Counterstrike with FaceIT and ESEA. Even FiveM for GTA V rolled out a custom anti cheat before it was added to the official game.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#94

Post by emgeee »

plopz wrote: post #32
arp242 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's impossible to prevent cheating from the server-side only. Something like an aimbot can operate purely on information you need to have as a client (to render the other players on the screen), and still be a huge advantage because it can respond faster than any human can.

I think server side statistical analysis can go a long way to detect stuff like that. Obviously its always a cat and mouse game between devs and cheaters, and there are always workarounds, but theres a lot more the devs could be doing without relying on invasive client side detection.

I've always wondered about this too. It should be pretty easy to recognize statistical outliers. I'm sure cheaters would start to adapt but that adaptation might start to look more in-line with normal skill levels so at least the game wouldn't be utterly ruined

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#95

Post by db48x »

throwaway48476 wrote: post #75
Thaxll wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet you install driver on Linux without knowing it, I mean Linux has 0 security for drivers.

When was the last time you had to install a Linux driver from out of tree?

Most people do install Nvidia’s out‐of‐tree graphics driver. It is definitely a risk.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#96

Post by throwaway48476 »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #82
throwaway48476 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's closed source and the assembly is obfuscated. You don't even need to bother with plausible debiability.

Surely the NSA has tools, people, resources etc to figure that out?

Dedicated to reverse engineering every update to vanguard? Huge waste of effort. They would probably just steal the source code.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#97

Post by heromal »

nickphx wrote: post #65
arp242 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's impossible to prevent cheating from the server-side only. Something like an aimbot can operate purely on information you need to have as a client (to render the other players on the screen), and still be a huge advantage because it can respond faster than any human can.

if you have a large enough player base to sample, you can determine who is cheating with math. EA Fairplay is pretty good.. Steam's VAC is good, and not some kernel level nonsense..

VAC is absolutely terrible, are you kidding? You have to rage to get VAC banned.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#98

Post by Cthulhu_ »

baseballdork wrote: post #27
arp242 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's impossible to prevent cheating from the server-side only. Something like an aimbot can operate purely on information you need to have as a client (to render the other players on the screen), and still be a huge advantage because it can respond faster than any human can.

Shouldn't that be detectable?

It should be - if a server firehose streams all players' network data to an analysis thing, it should be able to detect patterns of impossible accuracy and response time, even though there is some margin for error due to e.g. lag and packet loss (iirc intentional lag / packet loss are some strategies cheaters use to obfuscate things like aimbots, e.g. generating movements that shoot someone in the head but holding them back for a second or so so that in theory a competent player could have done the required motions within a second instead of 1/100th thereof)

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#99

Post by keyringlight »

sadeshmukh wrote: post #52
jolmg wrote: post #39

I've never seen a game request root privileges, and I would think installation of anything kernel-level would need that. None of the steam binaries have setuid nor capabilities set. Have anyone seen games that request root privileges? EDIT: I'm gathering from this[1] and the fact that no wine-related package have kernel modules included and no executable from any of those packages have setuid nor capabilities set, th…

Everything says "wants to make changes to your device". I accidentally installed EAC that way.

It's worth noting that when you first install it, steam asks to install a service to assist with its duties, presumably for most install tasks. Steam has been around long enough and that service is now trouble free that it became part of the furniture most ignore as part of the background. That's aside from how users may be trained to hit 'yes' on any permission box that comes up to swat it away and play the game.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#100

Post by Rohansi »

nickphx wrote: post #65
arp242 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's impossible to prevent cheating from the server-side only. Something like an aimbot can operate purely on information you need to have as a client (to render the other players on the screen), and still be a huge advantage because it can respond faster than any human can.

if you have a large enough player base to sample, you can determine who is cheating with math. EA Fairplay is pretty good.. Steam's VAC is good, and not some kernel level nonsense..

To some degree, yes. But there are actually many cheaters that intentionally don't play perfectly to avoid detection. That way they appear higher skilled but still within human range.
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