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Landowner Sues After State Searches Property Without Warrant or Consent

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Re: Landowner Sues After State Searches Property Without Warrant or Consent

#91

Post by eesmith »

eesmith wrote: post #89
busterarm wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the same tax dollars. It's paying for kids to go to school. That's a public good. You want society to do this. Why should your tax dollars only go to schools controlled by the state? Do you care that public schools in the US typically have worse outcomes and have to spend more per child to get there?

> Do you care that public schools in the US typically have worse outcomes and have to spend more per child to get there? That statement is not true. There are many problems with the non-public system. I'll use the term "voucher" school to mean a school which is not controlled by a school board whose members are voted for by the residents of the school catchment area. (This isn't quite correct, as there are public sch…

(typo: "as subtext to expel" should be "as pretext to expel")

Re: Landowner Sues After State Searches Property Without Warrant or Consent

#92

Post by consteval »

busterarm wrote: post #73
danaris wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Or are you saying that should only be a privilege of the rich? No: I don't think anyone should have the option of private schools. Yes, I think public education should be mandatory in the US. That way, when there are problems with the public school system in a given area, rather than just pulling their own children—and money—out, the rich people would be personally incentivized to find ways to make it better for ev…

One of the things that I am most thankful for as am American is that we're not living in an authoritarian hellhole where the state-offered solution is the only solution. As a kid my option was to be forcibly medicated by some random tyrant bureaucrat or not be allowed to attend school. I had no disorder or diagnosis that required this. Luckily I was able to escape to private school. More importantly, children are not…

> public schools only provide one-size-fits-all opportunity

This isn't true - there's many specialty public schools. Schools for the deaf, schools for the blind, schools for those with severe learning disabilities.

The core issue with private education is it gives richer people an incentive to screw over public schools, which is exactly what we're seeing. They're greedy, it's not just enough for them to have private schools. They also have to siphon money from public schools, which hurts poorer Americans.

In theory, private schools could be fine. But when we give millions of public dollars to private schools, we have a huge problem.

Re: Landowner Sues After State Searches Property Without Warrant or Consent

#93

Post by consteval »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #85
consteval wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like an obvious example of separation of church and state. The state shouldn't be funding the indoctrination of people into a particular church.

the state isn't funding any particular church. It is giving a voucher that can be redeemed by any secular or religious school. I think it would be a separation issue if vouchers 1) could only be used for one religion or 2) could only be used at secular schools. The key is equal treatment, not enforcing atheism.

A-religious endeavors are not inherently atheist. Public education is certainly not atheist.

Vouchers as a whole should be eliminated. Giving public funds to private schools is nothing short of evil. Using children as a pawn to move that money doesn't change anything.

Ultimately these schools exist to completely bypass any standards of education. That includes teaching religion, which is not allowed in public schools for good reason. This, on its own, isn't awful. But combined with stealing money from public schools it's a huge problem.

Re: Landowner Sues After State Searches Property Without Warrant or Consent

#94

Post by s1artibartfast »

consteval wrote: post #93
s1artibartfast wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the state isn't funding any particular church. It is giving a voucher that can be redeemed by any secular or religious school. I think it would be a separation issue if vouchers 1) could only be used for one religion or 2) could only be used at secular schools. The key is equal treatment, not enforcing atheism.

A-religious endeavors are not inherently atheist. Public education is certainly not atheist. Vouchers as a whole should be eliminated. Giving public funds to private schools is nothing short of evil. Using children as a pawn to move that money doesn't change anything. Ultimately these schools exist to completely bypass any standards of education. That includes teaching religion, which is not allowed in public schools…

I think we will have to disagree. Religious topics aside, I am still a big proponent of vouchers, if only to get more kids out of bad public schools and hold them accountable.

It isnt stealing money because the schools dont deserve it. Students success should be the focus, not institutions.

Re: Landowner Sues After State Searches Property Without Warrant or Consent

#95

Post by superkuh »

loeg wrote: post #84
casefields wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I imagine curiosity like most things on HN.

There's nothing particularly interesting about the dude's appearance. I recommend saving yourself a click and moving on.

So why are you so interested in this thread and people's interaction with the photo?

Re: Landowner Sues After State Searches Property Without Warrant or Consent

#96

Post by consteval »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #94
consteval wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A-religious endeavors are not inherently atheist. Public education is certainly not atheist. Vouchers as a whole should be eliminated. Giving public funds to private schools is nothing short of evil. Using children as a pawn to move that money doesn't change anything. Ultimately these schools exist to completely bypass any standards of education. That includes teaching religion, which is not allowed in public schools…

I think we will have to disagree. Religious topics aside, I am still a big proponent of vouchers, if only to get more kids out of bad public schools and hold them accountable. It isnt stealing money because the schools dont deserve it. Students success should be the focus, not institutions.

Right, but you're describing a self-eating animal. If student success if the intention, diverting money from public schools won't help in the long run. It will work for a while, but as public schools get drained then private schools will be the only competitive option.

Then, of course, you would jack up the prices. Private schools are only limited in greed due to competition with the public sector. The more you erode the competition, the more expensive and lower quality private schools will become. Eventually we'll reach an inflection point, in which private schools are too expensive for vouchers, or our public funds would have to increase.

I also disagree on the institution not mattering. What many don't realize is there are virtually zero standards for private schools. Even today, many are not competitive. Rather, they exist as a way for insane parents to "educate" their children on fringe teachings. Sometimes that's religious schools, sometimes it's cult teachings, sometimes these private schools are more or less abuse centers or conversion camps.

SOME private schools have competitive education. It's not a given they have more competitive education, and I'd actually argue it's far less likely, because they have no rules anywhere saying what they have to do. Public schools are, at least, pretty reasonable in process and curriculum.

The reason conservatives are so keen on dismantling public education and pushing private schools isn't due to quality, although that's a convenient talking point. It's due to this lack of standards that allow conservative beliefs to flourish. It's often said education is an anti-conservative space. Naturally, the end goal is lower quality education, and this is simply the propaganda used to get to that desired end state.

Re: Landowner Sues After State Searches Property Without Warrant or Consent

#97

Post by falcolas »

danaris wrote: post #68
falcolas wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our principles of justice? You are aware that we use incarceration as a source of slave labor for the government and private companies, right? That even after folks have served their time, we severely restrict their rights for the rest of their lives? I'm not trying to be an ass, but the US' principles of justice are universally fucked.

Note: This is a semantic argument. YMMV. That sounds like you're talking about our practice of justice. It is, unquestionably, pretty fucked. I would say that "our principles of justice," on the other hand, a) clearly include "innocent until proven guilty", which would preclude the above question from an employer, and b) pretty well condemn a lot of stuff in our practice of justice, as well, with prison labor high on…

Innocent until proven guilty is a great idea. I'll agree with that. But it's not really implemented anywhere. You're stuck in prison or effectively on parole until you're found not guilty (or the case is dropped), with no reparation. You can also be put in jail indefinitely by a judge with no process of appeal.

Which I guess you could call a problem with the practice, but that begs the question: if it's never practiced, is it really a principle? Or is it just propaganda?

Also, prison labor is built into our constitution, making it more than just a practice.

Re: Landowner Sues After State Searches Property Without Warrant or Consent

#98

Post by neilv »

falcolas wrote: post #97
danaris wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note: This is a semantic argument. YMMV. That sounds like you're talking about our practice of justice. It is, unquestionably, pretty fucked. I would say that "our principles of justice," on the other hand, a) clearly include "innocent until proven guilty", which would preclude the above question from an employer, and b) pretty well condemn a lot of stuff in our practice of justice, as well, with prison labor high on…

Innocent until proven guilty is a great idea. I'll agree with that. But it's not really implemented anywhere. You're stuck in prison or effectively on parole until you're found not guilty (or the case is dropped), with no reparation. You can also be put in jail indefinitely by a judge with no process of appeal. Which I guess you could call a problem with the practice, but that begs the question: if it's never practic…

> if it's never practiced, is it really a principle? Or is it just propaganda?

Whether it's principle or propaganda, it was the deal. So, if it's not a principle, make it one. Including reminding employers who forgot civics class.

Re: Landowner Sues After State Searches Property Without Warrant or Consent

#99

Post by s1artibartfast »

consteval wrote: post #96
s1artibartfast wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we will have to disagree. Religious topics aside, I am still a big proponent of vouchers, if only to get more kids out of bad public schools and hold them accountable. It isnt stealing money because the schools dont deserve it. Students success should be the focus, not institutions.

Right, but you're describing a self-eating animal. If student success if the intention, diverting money from public schools won't help in the long run. It will work for a while, but as public schools get drained then private schools will be the only competitive option. Then, of course, you would jack up the prices. Private schools are only limited in greed due to competition with the public sector. The more you erode…

It seems like you have a lot of unsupported assumptions.

First seems to be that public schools cant compete with private schools on student success. This seems strange from a public school proponent.

Why do you think private school competition will erode over time?

Why cant students flow back into public schools if private ones become expensive and terrible over time.

In my opinion, the whole point of vouchers is to let failing institutions fail. If you think accreditation criteria are too lax for private schools, then that is a workable objection. I think they should be the exact same as public schools.

Re: Landowner Sues After State Searches Property Without Warrant or Consent

#100

Post by consteval »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #99
consteval wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, but you're describing a self-eating animal. If student success if the intention, diverting money from public schools won't help in the long run. It will work for a while, but as public schools get drained then private schools will be the only competitive option. Then, of course, you would jack up the prices. Private schools are only limited in greed due to competition with the public sector. The more you erode…

It seems like you have a lot of unsupported assumptions. First seems to be that public schools cant compete with private schools on student success. This seems strange from a public school proponent. Why do you think private school competition will erode over time? Why cant students flow back into public schools if private ones become expensive and terrible over time. In my opinion, the whole point of vouchers is to…

> First seems to be that public schools cant compete with private schools on student success. This seems strange from a public school proponent

No, please read carefully. I said if this continues and more money is diverted from public schools, this will be the case. This should be obvious - every dollar on vouchers is a dollar NOT in public schools. That's not a side effect by the way, that's the entire purpose of these developments.

> Why cant students flow back into public schools if private ones become expensive and terrible over time

Because the public schools have no money now because you took it. That money doesn't fall from the sky.

> let failing institutions fail

Okay, so you agree with me. If we go down this path public education will fall. Once again this is the nature of this political movement, not a side effect.

> If you think accreditation criteria are too lax for private schools, then that is a workable objection

Sigh. No, no it's not. Because then you have a school that has accreditation and curriculum managed by the government that receives public funds.

Um... you just described a public school. That will never happen because the very idea is at odds with the ideology behind it.

The idea isn't "public school 2.0". The fact private schools have no standards is not an oversight, it's the motivation.

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