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Superstitious Users and the FreeBSD Logo

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Re: Superstitious Users and the FreeBSD Logo

#91

Post by dagmx »

probably_wrong wrote: post #39
dagmx wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is sort of incorrect. The BSD daemon was originally drawn by Phil Foglio. As seen here https://www.mckusick.com/beastie/jpg/foglio.jpg Lasseter did a later (more current and iconic) revision. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSD_Daemon?wprov=sfti1 Also John did more than just direct Toy Story. Lasseter was one of the founders of Pixar , directed several movies, took over the chief creative officer role for both Pix…

*multiple Hugo Award winner Phil Foglio. I get that John Lasseter is probably the most well-known, but Phil Foglio and the Girl Genius team have been releasing quality work for decades.

Yep! I should have included his accomplishments too but my brain assumed he was well known.

Probably the free logo with the most awarded talents behind it.

Re: Superstitious Users and the FreeBSD Logo

#92

Post by dagmx »

somat wrote: post #41
dagmx wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is sort of incorrect. The BSD daemon was originally drawn by Phil Foglio. As seen here https://www.mckusick.com/beastie/jpg/foglio.jpg Lasseter did a later (more current and iconic) revision. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSD_Daemon?wprov=sfti1 Also John did more than just direct Toy Story. Lasseter was one of the founders of Pixar , directed several movies, took over the chief creative officer role for both Pix…

Is that the same Phil Foglio that draws girl genius? https://www.girlgeniusonline.com/

Yep. The Wikipedia article goes into how their paths crossed

Re: Superstitious Users and the FreeBSD Logo

#93

Post by AStonesThrow »

gpderetta wrote: post #53
probably_wrong wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

*multiple Hugo Award winner Phil Foglio. I get that John Lasseter is probably the most well-known, but Phil Foglio and the Girl Genius team have been releasing quality work for decades.

A lot of old time Magic The Gathering players are also familiar with Phil (and Katia) Foglio's work.

I stopped playing M:tG, after a frank conversation with my priest about whether I should be "pretending" to summon demons and cast sorceries, in public cafés, with street kids watching. We decided that I could find a more wholesome (and perhaps less absurdly expensive) hobby.

If only that priest had intervened in the 1990s, when I began to contemplate installing BSD instead of my father's Windows.

Re: Superstitious Users and the FreeBSD Logo

#94

Post by AStonesThrow »

Joker_vD wrote: post #40

The strange thing is, there are lot of cathedral churches with all sorts of demonic-looking creatures on them as decorations; not to mention quite an amount of folklore in which some saint or other would overpower the lesser imps with the strength of his faith and make them do his bidding.

Indeed, and if you look closely at iconography as late as the Counterreformation (and back to ancient Greece), you'll find horns on the head of Moses, Elijah, et. al., because horns signify wisdom rather than evil. The devil has been depicted with horns to acknowledge his wisdom.

Re: Superstitious Users and the FreeBSD Logo

#96

Post by consteval »

veltas wrote: post #45
troad wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hotel guest was certainly not right to complain. There are people - often religious - who have a funny definition of "welcoming" which comes perilously close to "either believe as I do, or at least have the decency to pretend that you do in public." Shucks to that. The guest is demanding that others sacrifice their own integrity to stroke her ego, and placate her obviously fragile beliefs. It is not the job of ev…

> It is not the job of everyone else in the world to suspend their beliefs to sustain yours. If you have a business called "666 Flowers and Cakes" then a lot of Christians won't go there, and some might confront you about it. This isn't demanding or controlling thought, it's just freedom of association. Nobody's forcing FreeBSD to do anything, but I'm pointing out the logo is at odds with their code of conduct. The w…

> but I'm pointing out the logo is at odds with their code of conduct

Okay but it's not, because they are STILL welcoming to ALL religions and they're not telling you what to believe in.

This is the trouble with religion. Since they're predicated on a belief of mission and saviorship, a neutral or disregard position is interpreted as opposition. This is not the case! Simply using a logo which looks like a demon is not opposition to any religion - because you can still be that religion and use the software.

We see this time and time and time again. Not bending over backwards to one particular religion is not opposition. In the vast, vast majority of religion such a symbol is not seen as offensive. Often times with religion simply acknowledging secularism or other religions is interpreted as offense. This makes religious tolerance virtually impossible, because in order to make any arbitrary religion happy you have to explicitly make all other religions unhappy.

This is why the correct way to tolerate religion is to simply pretend it doesn't exist. Well, if Abrahamic religions do not exist then the logo cannot be offensive.

If you have doubts this is the most correct way to approach religious tolerance I recommend looking into some landmark Supreme Court cases about the establishment clause, particularly in schools. The justices are good at explaining why this is the approach often taken.

Re: Superstitious Users and the FreeBSD Logo

#97

Post by hggigg »

thiht wrote: post #81
hggigg wrote: post #21

Eh could be worse. My daughter’s boyfriend’s parents won’t use Apple stuff because the logo has a bite out of it. Hilariously though they are paranoid about China and Chinese influence and go on about it all the time including Apple making stuff in China but have Huawei phones.

I’m not sure I understand, what’s wrong with the bite? I’m guessing something with biting the forbidden fruit or some other nonsense? Do these people know it’s at no point in any scriptures described as an apple? Also do these people understand what a metaphor is? Christian literalism is absolutely moronic.

Something like that.

Re: Superstitious Users and the FreeBSD Logo

#98

Post by TiredOfLife »

teekert wrote: post #7

Well, I went to primary school with a heavy christian tradition and would probably have felt the same. I'm very happy that someone decided to tell me at about age 12 that perhaps it's not all literally true and some people have other ideas. Some not even involving concepts like eternal damnation, original sin, an omnipotent being that turns women into salt pillars but allows for children with bone cancer to exist, an…

And then you find out about Santa Claus and Easter Bunny.

Re: Superstitious Users and the FreeBSD Logo

#99

Post by veltas »

consteval wrote: post #96
veltas wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is not the job of everyone else in the world to suspend their beliefs to sustain yours. If you have a business called "666 Flowers and Cakes" then a lot of Christians won't go there, and some might confront you about it. This isn't demanding or controlling thought, it's just freedom of association. Nobody's forcing FreeBSD to do anything, but I'm pointing out the logo is at odds with their code of conduct. The w…

> but I'm pointing out the logo is at odds with their code of conduct Okay but it's not, because they are STILL welcoming to ALL religions and they're not telling you what to believe in. This is the trouble with religion. Since they're predicated on a belief of mission and saviorship, a neutral or disregard position is interpreted as opposition. This is not the case! Simply using a logo which looks like a demon is no…

> a neutral or disregard position is interpreted as opposition

It's not really neutral though, it's specifically from the outset designed to depict something evil in the culture of the religion. The current more abstract logo could just as easily looks like traits of Satan as a random demon. And I don't believe this is an attack on Christianity or Christians, or designed to exclude Christians. I don't imagine it bothers most Christians.

But this is something certain Christians will be put off by, and find unwelcoming, for religious reasons. So hence this is at odds with the code of conduct in my opinion.

And really the whole thread has just confirmed this, I've been just short of accused of being an extremist, and had many complaints about my religion, just for pointing this out.

I think one solution is just not to have codes of conduct, it seems to breed this kind of discussion and vitriol. And apparently there's always favourite religions, ethnicities, etc.; different according to who you ask. And also maybe avoid using religious-themed art in your logo if you want to avoid potential for religious discussion. The people behind the logo probably considered and decided this doesn't matter a long time ago, and personally I respect their decision: but it does mean that it will exclude some people.

Re: Superstitious Users and the FreeBSD Logo

#100

Post by marshray »

ahoka wrote: post #35
marshray wrote: post #11

I remember my wife describing the funny look she got from our "traditional" next door neighbor as she took the latest edition of the BSD journal out of the mailbox. Never went any further than that. But if you choose to use a literal hell-themed demon as your product's logo, don't be surprised if it limits your user base.

It limits it for the better.

Bigotry goes both ways.
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