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We're excited about our new roundabout

wsdotblog.blogspot.com

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Re: We're excited about our new roundabout

#91

Post by bobthepanda »

509engr wrote: post #17
nixosbestos wrote: post #12

Apparently I'm sticking my neck out here, but it really doesn't seem that hard. Overhead, I can intuit the path I would take, and if I imagine it first-person, it seems even more obvious. It's frustrating riding with certain other American drivers in other countries. I've met numerous folks now that seem upset that they have to actually pay attention to their driving and the traffic. Meanwhile I'm horrified that they…

No, you're definitely not the only one who likes them. Some folks complain about them when they first go in, but they tend to figure it out. WSDOT has been encouraging them for a few years now, and my town has several new roundabouts as a result -- and lots of other cities across the state are using them. They've made navigating those intersections way easier, reduced traffic "waiting times", and generally improved s…

Huge roundabouts are very dangerous; the safety factor in the modern ones WA installs is that they are tight and slow, which reduces the severity of any crashes.

It also does not help that NJ is the only state in the US that does not have a consistent rule about roundabout traffic priority.

Re: We're excited about our new roundabout

#92

Post by bobthepanda »

foota wrote: post #42
AngryData wrote: post #37

I fail to see how this helps over more traditional designs. Not to mention tight roundabouts always have horrible curbs that trucks have to smash into to try and jump over to make the turns, and they are never gentle bumps, they are always tire and curb damaging trash, especially for heavy loads which are primarily the vehicles that need to jump the curbs. All the roundabouts around me I wish they would just get rid…

For one, roundabouts turn what would be a T-Bone intersection into a glancing hit. I think that's the biggest safety benefit. They also improve the flow of traffic since there's no starting and stopping (think of it like a stoplight is a mutex lock and a roundabout is a spinlock).

And because they have no electronic or moving parts, the upkeep is minimal. There is some cost to a traffic light, particularly as you start adding weird phases and whatnot.

Re: We're excited about our new roundabout

#93

Post by bigstrat2003 »

thepaulmcbride wrote: post #35

I live in the US now, but originally from Ireland. My least favourite part of US road infrastructure is the 4 way stop. They are just not good compared to a roundabout. Half the time the only way you can tell it’s an all way stop is by looking for the back of the stop signs on the perpendicular road. With a roundabout, you only have to look in one direction, and if it’s clear, you don’t even have to stop.

> Half the time the only way you can tell it’s an all way stop is by looking for the back of the stop signs on the perpendicular road.

Your state is doing it wrong then. Almost every four way stop I've ever seen in the US has a little sign beneath the big octagon which says "4-way".

Anyways, I have nothing against roundabouts. But I do have issue with some states (looking at you, Wisconsin) which are obsessed with tearing out perfectly good stop signs (as in, it's a low volume intersection or it's only a two way stop with a highway going through) and replacing them with roundabouts. It's just a waste of taxpayer money.

Re: We're excited about our new roundabout

#94

Post by bigstrat2003 »

nixosbestos wrote: post #12

Apparently I'm sticking my neck out here, but it really doesn't seem that hard. Overhead, I can intuit the path I would take, and if I imagine it first-person, it seems even more obvious. It's frustrating riding with certain other American drivers in other countries. I've met numerous folks now that seem upset that they have to actually pay attention to their driving and the traffic. Meanwhile I'm horrified that they…

I genuinely cannot read that roundabout from overhead, and I am not a person who has trouble with roundabouts. I think it would benefit greatly from an explanatory diagram. I do hope that it would be more obvious while on the ground, like you said.

Re: We're excited about our new roundabout

#95

Post by bnralt »

thepaulmcbride wrote: post #35

I live in the US now, but originally from Ireland. My least favourite part of US road infrastructure is the 4 way stop. They are just not good compared to a roundabout. Half the time the only way you can tell it’s an all way stop is by looking for the back of the stop signs on the perpendicular road. With a roundabout, you only have to look in one direction, and if it’s clear, you don’t even have to stop.

Online I see this mentality that roundabouts are great no matter what and it seems really strange to me. It really depends on the design of the roundabout and the traffic conditions. Where I grew up there are a lot of roundabouts, but many of them are so dangerously designed I started actively avoiding them. It’s not that you can’t poorly design a four way stop, but it seems to be much less common, for whatever reason.

I see people complain about roundabouts with traffics lights and how it negates some of the reasons for the roundabout. The thing is, these aren’t just put in for fun, usually they’re in areas with extremely heavy traffic where merging can get extremely difficult which leads to long backups (or in cities, accidents that can shut down traffic).

Roundabouts can be great when used well, but they’re hardly the silver bullet that online discourse often portrays them as.

Re: We're excited about our new roundabout

#96

Post by bigstrat2003 »

buffaloPizzaBoy wrote: post #57

Whats not mentioned in the article is that this particular intersection has a (15mph residential access road - top right) (25 mph farmland road - bottom) (50mph country highway - left and right) Previously, only drivers from the 15mph and 25mph roads had to stop! Visibility coming from the south would also be terrible to check for incoming highway drivers (left is blocked by foliage, right the road curves out of sigh…

> Previously, only drivers from the 15mph and 25mph roads had to stop!

This is something which drives me crazy with a decent number of roundabouts that the Wisconsin DOT constructs. You have a rural intersection where a local road crosses a major highway, and the local road has a stop sign in either direction. Then the DOT slaps a roundabout in there, greatly inhibiting the highway traffic which is 95% of the traffic going through that intersection. That is not a good use case for a roundabout! But for some reason they insist on doing them anyway. It's terrible road design.

Re: We're excited about our new roundabout

#97

Post by zlsa »

bigstrat2003 wrote: post #94
nixosbestos wrote: post #12

Apparently I'm sticking my neck out here, but it really doesn't seem that hard. Overhead, I can intuit the path I would take, and if I imagine it first-person, it seems even more obvious. It's frustrating riding with certain other American drivers in other countries. I've met numerous folks now that seem upset that they have to actually pay attention to their driving and the traffic. Meanwhile I'm horrified that they…

I genuinely cannot read that roundabout from overhead, and I am not a person who has trouble with roundabouts. I think it would benefit greatly from an explanatory diagram. I do hope that it would be more obvious while on the ground, like you said.

Unfortunately, it's not. Driving from right-to-left (in the first picture) requires drivers to enter the roundabout twice, then leave once. Judging by the amount of vehicle debris generally present and the additional "Yield" markings and signage that have been added to the second yield point since the construction was completed, it's been confusing from the ground as well.

Re: We're excited about our new roundabout

#98

Post by sokoloff »

MostlyStable wrote: post #66
thepaulmcbride wrote: post #35

I live in the US now, but originally from Ireland. My least favourite part of US road infrastructure is the 4 way stop. They are just not good compared to a roundabout. Half the time the only way you can tell it’s an all way stop is by looking for the back of the stop signs on the perpendicular road. With a roundabout, you only have to look in one direction, and if it’s clear, you don’t even have to stop.

Wait until you find one of the distressingly common places where they build a roundabout and put stop signs on some or all of the entrances.

Or two near me have traffic lights very near (1/4 block or so) from the exit, meaning that traffic will inevitably back up into the roundabout, locking it up.

Re: We're excited about our new roundabout

#99

Post by zlsa »

I live near this roundabout and drive through it almost daily.

> Drivers going northbound on SR 203 traffic may need to yield twice – once when entering the roundabout and again if traffic is passing between the two islands. If you think about it, that’s just following the same rules a second time.

The one key difference from the average (American) roundabout is the second yield. After you've waited your turn and entered the roundabout, you're required to yield again within a few feet. Obviously this is not an impossible task, but the signage leading up to the roundabout from northbound SR 203 doesn't at all indicate the shape of the roundabout. The navigation sign at the entrance only shows a single roundabout.

The second yield point is indicated with the standard yield sign and triangle markings on the road. But judging by the amount of detritus scattered on the ground, as well as the recent addition of "YIELD" text painted on the road and orange flags attached to the yield sign (both not present at any other entrance to the roundabout), the yield-twice pattern is not obvious to everyone.

Plus, the topology of the roundabout isn't conducive to seeing this from the ground, either; the relatively sharp right turn leading into the roundabout places the second yield sign out of your forward vision when you're approaching the roundabout, and the whole intersection itself is very slightly tilted away from the northbound entrance, making it really tricky to see and understand it when approaching.

---

Anecdotally, almost every time I've driven through here while there is simultaneous traffic from northbound SR 203 and northbound 203rd St. SE, the northbound 203rd St. SE traffic ends up being cut off by drivers failing to yield at the second entrance.

Re: We're excited about our new roundabout

#100

Post by lmm »

bnralt wrote: post #95
thepaulmcbride wrote: post #35

I live in the US now, but originally from Ireland. My least favourite part of US road infrastructure is the 4 way stop. They are just not good compared to a roundabout. Half the time the only way you can tell it’s an all way stop is by looking for the back of the stop signs on the perpendicular road. With a roundabout, you only have to look in one direction, and if it’s clear, you don’t even have to stop.

Online I see this mentality that roundabouts are great no matter what and it seems really strange to me. It really depends on the design of the roundabout and the traffic conditions. Where I grew up there are a lot of roundabouts, but many of them are so dangerously designed I started actively avoiding them. It’s not that you can’t poorly design a four way stop, but it seems to be much less common, for whatever reaso…

They absolutely are. Even if they don't prevent all collisions, they turn T-bones into glancing hits and so save a lot of lives. The worst roundabout beats the best 4-way stop any day of the week. Sometimes there really are easy answers.
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