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How AlphaChip transformed computer chip design

deepmind.google

91–100 of 215 posts

Re: How AlphaChip transformed computer chip design

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have not read the latest paper, but their previous work was really unclear about metrics being used. Researchers trying to replicate results had a hard time getting reliable details/benchmarks out of Google. Also, my recollection is that Google did not even compute timing, just wirelength and congestion; i.e. extremely primitive metrics. Floorplanning/placement/synthesis is a billion dollar industry, so if their ap…

> Floorplanning/placement/synthesis is a billion dollar industry Maybe all together, but I don't think automatic placement algorithms are a billion dollar industry. There's so much more to it than that.

Yes in combination. Customers generally buy these tools as a package deal. If the placer/floorplanner blows everything else out of the water, then a CAD vendor can upsell a lot of related tools.

Re: How AlphaChip transformed computer chip design

#92
post #39

Why aren’t they using this technique to design better transformer architectures or completely novel machine learning architectures in general? Are plain or mostly plain transformers really peak? I find that hard to believe.

Because chip placement and the design of neural network architectures are entirely different problems, so this solution won't magically transfer from one to the other.

And AlphaGo is trained to play Go? The point is training a model through self play to build neural network architectures. If it can play Go and architect chip placements, I don’t see why it couldn’t be trained to build novel ML architectures.

Re: How AlphaChip transformed computer chip design

#93
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First thing my mind went to as well, I’m sure this is already being worked on, I think it would be more impactful than even this.

why do you think that?

Far more people / companies are designing PCBs than there are designing custom chips.

Re: How AlphaChip transformed computer chip design

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, man... this is the same old stuff from the 2023 Anna Goldie statement (is this Anna Goldie's comment?). This was all addressed by Kahng in 2023 - no valid criticisms. Where do I start? Kahng's ISPD 2023 paper is not in dispute - no established experts objected to it. The Nature paper is in dispute. Dozens of experts objected to it: Kahng, Cheng, Markov, Madden, Lienig, Swartz objected publically. The fact that Ka…

For AlphaChip, pre-training is just training. You train, and save the weights in between. This has always been supported by the Google's open-source repository. I've read Kahng's FAQ, and he fails to address this, which is unsurprising, because there's simply no excuse for cutting out pre-training for a learning-based method. In his setup, every time AlphaChip sees a new chip, he re-randomizes the weights and makes i…

It's not that one needs an excuse. The Google CT repo said clearly you don't need to pretrain. "supported" usually includes at least an illustration, some scripts to get it going - no such thing there before Kahng's paper. Pre-trained was not recommended and was not supported.

Everything optimized in Nature RL is an approximation. HPWL is where you start, and RL uses it in the objective function too. As shown in "Stronger Baselines", RL loses a lot by HPWL - so much that nothing else can save it. If your wires are very long, you need routing tracks to route them, and you end up with congestion too.

SA consistently produces better solutions than RL for various time budgets. That's what matters. Both papers have shown that SA produces competent solutions. You give SA more time, you get better solutions. In a fair comparison, you give equal budgets to SA and RL. RL loses. This was confirmed using Google's RL code and two independent SA implementations, on many circuits. Very definitively. No, ML did not have SA beat - please read the papers.

Cadence hasn't funded Kahng for a long time. In fact, Google funded Kahng more recently, so he has all the incentives to support Google. Markov's LinkedIn page says he worked at Google before. Even Chatterjee, of all people, worked at Google.

Google's open-source tool is a head fake, it's practically unusable.

Update: I'll respond to the next comment here since there's no Reply button.

1. The Nature paper said one thing, the code did something else, as we've discovered. The RL method does some training as it goes. So, pre-training is not the same as training. Hence "pre". Another problem with pretraining in Google work is data contamination - we can't compare test and training data. The Google folks admitted to training and testing on different versions of the same design. That's bad. Rejection-level bad.

2. HPWL is indeed a nice simple objective. So nice that Jeff Dean's recent talks use it. It is chip design. All commercial circuit placers without exception optimize it and report it. All EDA publications report it. Google's RL optimized HPWL + density + congestion

3. This shows you aren't familiar with EDA. Simulated Annealing was the king of placement from mid 1980s to mid 1990s. Most chips were placed by SA. But you don't have to go far - as I recall, the Nature paper says they used SA to postprocess macro placements.

SA can indeed find mediocre solutions quickly, but keeps on improving them, just like RL. Perhaps, you aren't familiar with SA. I am. There are provable results showing SA finds optimal solution if given enough time. Not for RL.

Re: How AlphaChip transformed computer chip design

#95

This work from Google (original Nature paper: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03544-w ) has been credibly criticized by several researchers in the EDA CAD discipline. These papers are of interest: - A rebuttal by a researcher within Google who wrote this at the same time as the "AlphaChip" work was going on ("Stronger Baselines for Evaluating Deep Reinforcement Learning in Chip Placement"): http://47.190.8…

FD: I have been following this whole thing for a while, and know personally a number of the people involved. The AlphaChip authors address criticism in their addendum, and in a prior statement from the co-lead authors: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-024-08032-5 , https://www.annagoldie.com/home/statement - The 2023 ISPD paper didn't pre-train at all. This means no learning from experience, for a learning-base…

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Re: How AlphaChip transformed computer chip design

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have not read the latest paper, but their previous work was really unclear about metrics being used. Researchers trying to replicate results had a hard time getting reliable details/benchmarks out of Google. Also, my recollection is that Google did not even compute timing, just wirelength and congestion; i.e. extremely primitive metrics. Floorplanning/placement/synthesis is a billion dollar industry, so if their ap…

The original paper reports P&R metrics (WNS, TNS, area, power, wirelength, horizontal congestion, vertical congestion) - https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03544-w (no paywall): https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~ey204/teaching/ACS/R244_2021_2022/...

From what I saw in the rebuttal papers, the Google cost-function is wirelength based. You can still get good TNS from that if your timing is very simplistic -- or if you choose your benchmark carefully.

Re: How AlphaChip transformed computer chip design

#97
post #36

I'm pretty sure Cadence and Synopsys have both released reinforcement-learning-based placing and floor planning tools. How do they compare...?

Synopsys tools can use ML, but not for the layout itself, rather tuning variables that go into the physical design flow.

> Synopsys DSO.ai autonomously explores multiple design spaces to optimize PPA metrics while minimizing tradeoffs for the target application. It uses AI to navigate the design-technology solution space by automatically adjusting or fine-tuning the inputs to the design (e.g., settings, constraints, process, flow, hierarchy, and library) to find the best PPA targets.

Re: How AlphaChip transformed computer chip design

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, man... this is the same old stuff from the 2023 Anna Goldie statement (is this Anna Goldie's comment?). This was all addressed by Kahng in 2023 - no valid criticisms. Where do I start? Kahng's ISPD 2023 paper is not in dispute - no established experts objected to it. The Nature paper is in dispute. Dozens of experts objected to it: Kahng, Cheng, Markov, Madden, Lienig, Swartz objected publically. The fact that Ka…

For AlphaChip, pre-training is just training. You train, and save the weights in between. This has always been supported by the Google's open-source repository. I've read Kahng's FAQ, and he fails to address this, which is unsurprising, because there's simply no excuse for cutting out pre-training for a learning-based method. In his setup, every time AlphaChip sees a new chip, he re-randomizes the weights and makes i…

[flagged]

Re: How AlphaChip transformed computer chip design

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For AlphaChip, pre-training is just training. You train, and save the weights in between. This has always been supported by the Google's open-source repository. I've read Kahng's FAQ, and he fails to address this, which is unsurprising, because there's simply no excuse for cutting out pre-training for a learning-based method. In his setup, every time AlphaChip sees a new chip, he re-randomizes the weights and makes i…

It's not that one needs an excuse. The Google CT repo said clearly you don't need to pretrain. "supported" usually includes at least an illustration, some scripts to get it going - no such thing there before Kahng's paper. Pre-trained was not recommended and was not supported. Everything optimized in Nature RL is an approximation. HPWL is where you start, and RL uses it in the objective function too. As shown in "Str…

The Nature paper describes the importance of pre-training repeatedly. The ability to learn from experience is the whole point of the method. Pre-training is just training and saving the weights -- this is ML 101.

I'm glad you agree that HPWL is a proxy metric. Optimizing HPWL is a fun applied math puzzle, but it's not chip design.

I am unaware of a single instance of someone using SA to generate real-world, usable macro layouts that were actually taped out, much less for modern chip design, in part due to SA's struggles to manage congestion, resulting in unusable layouts. SA converges quickly to a bad solution, but this is of little practical value.

Re: How AlphaChip transformed computer chip design

#100
Eurisco [1], if I remember correctly, was once used to perform placement-and-route task and was pretty good at it.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurisko

What's more, Eurisco was then used in designing Traveler TCS' game fleet of battle spaceships. And Eurisco used symmetry-based placement learned from VLSI design in the design of the spaceships' fleet.

Can AlphaChip's heuistics be used anywhere else?

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