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Intel is on life support. Can anything save it?

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Re: Intel is on life support. Can anything save it?

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was contemplating the same thing. I get Intel isn't doing so well but I really can't imagine it just collapsing and dying. That said another possibility is just years of stagnation and low returns on your investment

A definite possibility. Having once worked for them I'm biased and likely too optimistic. They have an army of absolutely stellar engineers.

> They have an army of absolutely stellar engineers.

How many of them are inclined to stay after the value of any stock-based comp was utterly destroyed and layoffs have presumably smashed morale?

Re: Intel is on life support. Can anything save it?

#92

Where does Intel go from here? * They missed out the rise of mobile * They missed out on the rise of GPU computing * AMD has been making gains in the server cpu market What do they have left other than consumer computer market where their main advantage is name recognition?

Fabs. They're one of the few companies that actually owns/builds state-of-the-art fabs, in a critical field where the main competitor is at risk of having its main production sites destroyed in a war everyone is expecting to happen.

Re: Intel is on life support. Can anything save it?

#93
post #5

Is this this article really stating "Wall Street is upset at Intel because they are not Nvidia" ? If I had to guess, I think the above is true. Well too bad Wall Street :) If Intel is really in bad shape, then maybe it is time for some form of nationalization.

"...shrivelled to $84bn, less than the value of its plants and equipment..." Hints at private equity sharks might start circling. Splitting chip design and fabrication would align with how most of the industry operates. Get very good at chip design or fabrication. The era of WinTel is over. Megalithic data centers tend not to use MS OS and thus are free to choose AMD and increasingly ARM CPUs. For Intel to rush into…

I blame Microsoft for enshittifying Windows 11 to the point of nobody wanting to "upgrade" to it.

Re: Intel is on life support. Can anything save it?

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was contemplating the same thing. I get Intel isn't doing so well but I really can't imagine it just collapsing and dying. That said another possibility is just years of stagnation and low returns on your investment

A definite possibility. Having once worked for them I'm biased and likely too optimistic. They have an army of absolutely stellar engineers.

They used to have stellar engineers. Are the good ones still there?

Re: Intel is on life support. Can anything save it?

#95
post #6

If Intel is critical to the US industrial base, why aren't Nvidia and Apple stepping up to support Intel? What is the point of $3T national champions like Apple and Nvidia if they ship the industrial base overseas.

Apple and Nvidia are where they are today in part because of their use of the best fabs. If you force them to use Intel, their edge will erode and they will no longer be $3T national champions.

Re: Intel is on life support. Can anything save it?

#96
post #54
post #6

If Intel is critical to the US industrial base, why aren't Nvidia and Apple stepping up to support Intel? What is the point of $3T national champions like Apple and Nvidia if they ship the industrial base overseas.

That would be an argument for splitting Intel into two, the contract fab business and the design business. It's tough to make a partnership with Intel to fab your chip design if their other arm is competing with you on the same thing. Intel's process is tailored to their own designs which make it hard for outsiders to optimize. So, it's not only risky from a business perspective to make Intel your manufacturing partn…

But their struggles on 10nm and the fact that Lunar Lake is on TSMC tells me that they are not good at making chips.

Re: Intel is on life support. Can anything save it?

#97
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AMD almost went bankrupt until xbox and ps apus saved them. Intel just need a chance to reform

AMD almost went bankrupt because of Intel's illegal behavior. Intel received a small slap on the wrist, shrugged it off, and then proceeded to do nothing with their illegally-won cleared playing field (making what is perhaps the single biggest business blunder in human history - they effectively were left with zero competition, and squandered the opportunity). Meanwhile, AMD got scrappy and found a way to bounce back…

Wasn’t that judgement recently vacated for failing to prove the case, though?

Re: Intel is on life support. Can anything save it?

#98
I'm going to call it, and write it here so that I can link back to this comment in a few years to see how right or wrong I was.

Prediction: Intel is done. It will become a zombie company like IBM or Oracle in a few years, without the license lock-in moat keeping those rotting corpses alive, but may be able to offer cheaper fab services for "it just was the state of the art" chip manufacturing market. They'll continue to focus on becoming a financial optimization organization and never return to being a technical leader. They've become a company of pure inertia.

Reasons for the prediction:

1. Intel is not longer the process node leader and hasn't been for a while (when even was that? 14nm? 2014?).

2. Intel seems to be struggling to keep lead engineering talent, board members, and leaders of all kinds. Jim Kelly, Lip-Bu Tan, and so on. They still have Jeff Wilcox, but who knows for how long? At least the CEO is an engineer finally...I guess.

3. They continue to launch then retract in otherwise profitable markets, not taking any particular lead, but not continuing to invest until they get it. They still have really only one core business.

4. Their branding strategy seems to be built around confusing consumers in the hopes that they accidentally buy the wrong things. Successful companies can be clear in their product naming, zombie companies end up trying to stuff every single market niche with as much microtuned, barely differentiated, SKUs as possible. In actuality it's probably financial engineering to figure out what to do with various classes of yield issues. Disable the bad part of the chip, slap a K or KS, or KF, or T, or whatever on it and get it on the shelf. I counted over a dozen different Core i5 14 gen SKUs, and over 20! 13 gen Core i5 SKUs. There's probably 200 different brand-new-from-Intel CPU SKUs on the market today. Insane.

5. They're getting feature for feature beaten by smaller, lower stakes competitors both in and out of their ISA. Those same competitors are almost always cheaper, and made at other fabs. In otherwords, Intel doesn't lead anywhere and has no lock-in.

6. Their main moat, their ISA, can be comfortably virtualized or emulated elsewhere, bugs and all, at entirely useful speeds meaning there is a ready exit ramp as customers wish to take it.

There's probably more, and it's probably continues to paint a very poor picture, but there is very little reason today, or in the near future, to stay with Intel as a manufacturer except for inertia.

Re: Intel is on life support. Can anything save it?

#100
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Intel was never heavily involved in that, so idk why you think we'd be able to deduce that meaning from your previous comment. Also, the military semiconductor supply chain is already protected and has serious export restrictions, you just don't hear about it often. Don't forget that today's leading edge nodes are tomorrow's trailing edge, so you really can't escape the issue.

I suppose there are multiple reasons why saving Intel might be important. Making chips used for defence seems the most persuasive one to me. There's been a continual drive towards better semiconductor processes. That's really important for things like GPU compute. I think we're past diminishing returns for a lot of other things. There's probably a ~14nm arm chip in the keyboard I'm typing on that's only there because…

The ECU in your car doesn't benefit much from newer processes, but the chips required for self-driving do.

That's the special thing about leading semiconductors: they enable other technologies. From the personal computer to IoT and AI, all of these were at some point enabled by advances in semiconductor scaling.

You're only focused on what leading edge nodes provide today, but they enable much more than just speculative AI hyperscaling in the long term.

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