Live data from Hacker News

Common mistakes when using the metric system

nayuki.io

91–100 of 100 posts

Re: Common mistakes when using the metric system

#91
post #41
post #32

I thought this looked like good advice until I got to: > Mass/weight distinction > Incorrect: He weighs 70 kg; Correct: His mass is 70 kg > Incorrect: She weighs 50 kg; Correct: She weighs 490 N on Earth Really?! We’re not supposed to use kilograms to describe a person’s weight? And to describe someone’s weight, we have to use newtons and specify what planet they’re on? Good luck enforcing those rules.

Yeah, this is the only one that seems flat out wrong. When I'm on a bridge, I absolutely want to see "The bridge can hold up 3000 kg", NOT "The bridge can hold up 29 kN". Partly because "holding up" (as opposed to, say, withstanding) force sounds nonsensical, but primarily because knowing the maximum load in kg is much more useful.

Structures like bridges are a complicated case because you can't describe its load capacity as a mass or a weight (force).

I'll assume that a bridge fails when the downward force on its deck exceeds a certain constant number. But that force is inclusive of the dead weight of the bridge.

Let's say a bridge has a mass of 1000 kg and it can hold up an additional 1000 kg of vehicles on Earth. That means it can hold up about 20 000 N of weight (assuming that g = 10 m/s^2).

The Moon's surface gravity is 1/6th of the Earth's. 20 000 N of weight would be 12 000 kg of mass on the moon. Subtract the bridge's mass of 1000 kg, and you can put 11 000 of vehicles on the bridge - which is substantially more than 6× the mass of vehicles allowed on Earth.

Re: Common mistakes when using the metric system

#92
post #58

> 6 tons of wheat 6000 kg of wheat Why not 6 Mg of wheat?

6 Mg is technically correct and it has the advantage that 1 tonne (or metric ton) = 1 Mg exactly, so it's just a simple substitution of words without changing numbers.

At that point in the article, I wanted to ease the reader into the metric system and not introduce too many new concepts all at once.

Re: Common mistakes when using the metric system

#93

I was surprised to see "L" as the "only correct" (though as minor mistake) abbreviation for a liter, being certain "l" or "ℓ" is the way to go, as that's how I was taught so far. Turns out that SI actually allows both "l" and "L", but I would only ever use the uppercase if it's a sans-serif font in a non-prefixed unit ("L" as opposed to "ml"). I've never seen any can or bottle using "mL" or "cL". Some of the examples…

> calling spelling I'd never see a "common mistake" (like "gr." for grams)

Maybe I should change the example for gram to "gm" (or "GM"), because I actually see that in Canadian supermarkets - on the price label on shelves, not on the product label.

> I saw "Set the oven to 450 K", and I realized that the examples are to be taken with a grain of salt

I mean, that example exists to reinforce why we should continue using degrees Celsius for everyday temperatures. I'm simultaneously describing what we should do and what we should not do. The statement is less impactful if I only describe the positive example without the negative.

Re: Common mistakes when using the metric system

#94

Doesn't seem right. I wonder why they claim cc and Å are 'deprecated'.

> A cubic centimetre (or cubic centimeter in US English) (SI unit symbol: cm³; non-SI abbreviations: cc and ccm)

-- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cubic_centimetre

> Although still widely used in physics and chemistry, the angstrom is not officially a part of the International System of Units (SI). Up to 2019, it was listed as a compatible unit by both the International Bureau of Weights and Measures (BIPM) and the US National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST). However, it is not mentioned in the 9th edition of the official SI standard, the "BIPM Brochure" (2019)[13] or in the NIST version of the same,[14] and BIPM officially discourages its use. The angstrom is also not included in the European Union's catalogue of units of measure that may be used within its internal market.

-- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angstrom#Current_status

Re: Common mistakes when using the metric system

#95
post #57

It would have been nice to know the risks of making each of these mistakes, since honestly I only found a few places where a mistake can have real negative consequences. As with all things, context is king. I'm not going to be confused when my colleague asks me on slack if it's OK to email me a 15mb (millibar) document - I know what they meant. Nor am I going to worry if it's actually MiB vs MB, in this context it do…

> nice to know the risks of making each of these mistakes ... only found a few places where a mistake can have real negative consequences ... context is king

That's an excellent question. As an analogy, I would say that it's similar (but not identical) to making mistakes in natural-language spelling and grammar.

For many cases, you are correct that the meaning can be repaired with context. dis iz da kase 2 wif nglish, as u kan sea w/ this sntnce.

Likewise, there will be some cases where a single letter or word can make all the difference. "He hit her" conveys a different meaning than "He hit on her"; an ESL student might only learn the verb and not the important subsequent preposition. And then there are pronunciations: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Q44_A4NzjI .

Finally, by excusing the writer of all their mistakes, it puts the onus on the reader to grasp the right meaning. And if causes the reader to be confused or misunderstand, the reader has to go back and ask questions. That's a selfish shifting of effort.

> email me a 15mb (millibar) document

It looks like the symbol for bar (unit) is "bar", not "b". It is not part of SI. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_(unit)

You might not appreciate this, but there are fields where mb meaning millibit actually matters. Look at information theory such as data compression and error correction codes. We might say that JPEG encodes each RGB pixel with 3.0 bits, and WebP uses 2.8 bits/pixel, so WebP is 200 millibits per pixel more efficient than JPEG. There are many codec competitions where improvements are in the range of millibits per symbol (though they're written rather normally as 0.123 bits to not scare people).

By "autocorrecting" "mb" to "megabyte(s)", we lose out on the ability to express "millibit(s)".

> literally nobody speaks in terms of gigameters or teragrams or whatever

So why do we use megabytes, gigahertz, megapascals (for some industrial chemical processes), megawatts (power plants)? It's just a matter of habit. We collectively decided that kilometre is the biggest unit we'll tolerate, even though there is nothing technically wrong with megametre, gigametre, etc. We have the same problem with avoiding megagrams, kilolitres, kiloseconds, etc.

> It's roughly 1000km from my home town to the coast, so if if the moon is roughly 400,000 km away, then that's 400x the distance, pretty far.

That's nice, and it is true that when drawing attention to a comparison, the same unit should be used (Pat Naughtin and The Metric Maven both advocate for this idea). But it's also okay to write that the moon is 400 Mm away in the context of astronomy, because very few distances between bodies in space are less than 1 Mm.

The big problem with how writers treat the kilometre is that we always end up with things like "the nearest star is 4.35 light-years or 40 trillion km away". Instead of using SI prefixes as designed, we end up jamming big number words in front of the unit, and that doesn't make things any clearer. Would you like it if I said my CPU is 3.5 billion hertz, and ban all the mega-, giga-, etc.? I could even make the case that this isn't theoretical, because for example my monitor runs at 60 Hz, and we certainly must not call it 0.000 000 06 GHz with any sense of normalcy.

> My car weighs roughly 1 ton, so Hafthor's 501kg deadlift record is half my car

And you contradicted yourself because now you're using different units. It would be better to say that your car is 1000 kg and the deadlift record is 501 kg. So it's like sometimes you accept changing units, sometimes you don't.

Re: Common mistakes when using the metric system

#96

So, when using the kelvin temperature scale, it's lower case when using "kelvin", but uppercase when using the abbreviation "K"? That annoys me as kelvin is a name and even my phone wants to capitalise it.

The Kelvin(uppercase) scale is named after Lord Kelvin(uppercase), the unit is the kelvin(lowercase), and the symbol is K(uppercase).

This agrees with all SI units named after a person. The unit's name is lowercase (unless at the beginning of a sentence), and the symbol has its first letter in uppercase. Examples: newton (N), tesla (T), hertz (Hz), pascal (Pa), joule (J), watt (W), volt (V), ampere (A).

Note that "degrees Celsius" is capitalized in a special way.

See also: "I bought one bitcoin (1 BTC) on the Bitcoin network."

Re: Common mistakes when using the metric system

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same for "2.4 GHz wireless network" but it's supposed to be 2.4 gigahertz if fully spelled. I suppose there is a logic behind but it's not obvious.

I've always assumed "giga" is capitalised because it one might confuse a lower case g for "grams". Technically, 1gm is one gram-meter (grams * metres), whereas 1Gm is a thousand kilometres. You don't often encounter weird combined units like gram-metres outside of physics, except maybe for kWh (kW * 1 hour), but I don't see why you wouldn't be nice to physicists and give them the extra clarity. Other order of magnitu…

> assumed "giga" is capitalised because it one might confuse a lower case g for "grams"

Note that m is milli and m is metre; overlap hasn't stopped collisions between prefixes and units.

> "Hz" could just be "H"

No, H is henry (for inductance). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_(unit)

Re: Common mistakes when using the metric system

#98
post #34

A IB Diploma Physics textbook I had used a negative one exponent instead of a division symbol in units. This is not normal right?

Negative exponents do look odd. I first saw it in RollerCoaster Tycoon like 25 years ago.

Units with negative exponents are non-existent in everyday discourse (articles for the general public, product labels, commercial catalogs, etc.) and even the vast majority of engineering.

It's when you get into science and analysis where you start seeing big compound units and negative exponents. Here are a few examples: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viscosity#Units , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_constant , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_permittivity , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimensional_analysis

Re: Common mistakes when using the metric system

#99
post #69

few notes: - "Fuel consumption of 9.4 L / 100 km" is not "the right form" is a modern take, a more classic and still valid SI one is km/l which is very similar to "Fuel consumption of 9.4 LPK"; - "25 {kW/h,kW⋅h} to boil a tank of water" are both strange forms, kWh is the common accepted way to express energy, no center dot multiplication needed; - multiple prefix (vs power-of-10) and bare prefix are as well commonly…

> "Fuel consumption of 9.4 L / 100 km" is not "the right form" is a modern take

No, it is the right form.

> a more classic and still valid SI one is km/l

The SI one has always been L/km. Any use of km/L is a translation over from mpg (miles per gallon).

> km/l which is very similar to "Fuel consumption of 9.4 LPK"

km/l is the reciprocal of LPK. These are not remotely the same unit.

> kWh is the common accepted way to express energy, no center dot multiplication needed

In SI, it is unacceptable to multiply units together without a space, dot, or cross. This can create ambiguities - for example, "mm" could mean "millimetre" or "metre × metre". "ms" could mean "millisecond" or "metre × second".

I had a discussion here a while ago where I changed from "kWh" to "kW⋅h": https://www.reddit.com/r/Metric/comments/1313rhp/how_to_resp...

> multiple prefix ... well commonly accepted

Not really. Other than saying "I drove 30 k km", it is rare to stack prefixes. We don't say that CPU features are "5 millimicrometres".

> bare prefix are as well commonly accepted

And this is wrong. So, I have this electric scooter that goes 80 k at 30 k and weighs 40 k. How do you like that?

> we do not measure the mass but the weight so it should be 1.961daN

Actually, it's possible to measure mass. If the scale has an internal reference with a known mass, then it can adjust to the local gravitational constant.

What I mean is, let's say an electronic scale has an internal 10 g mass. When switching on the scale, it measures the internal mass and sees 9.8123 mN (millinewtons). Now it will use that scaling factor for anything else measured during the session. Then you move the scale to the south pole, and it measures the internal mass to have a weight of 9.9765 mN, so it compensates correspondingly.

Likewise, if you use a balance scale, then you are comparing against known masses (not weights). (We'll ignore buoyancy for the vast majority of commercial applications.)

> For instance climbing equipment in the EU use daN to express maximum loads of connectors, ropes etc

I haven't been exposed to that before, so thanks for that. That's just about the only example I have ever heard of involving the deca- prefix. I would much prefer all the non-power-of-1000 prefixes to die (goodbye to centi-, deci-, deca-, hecto-) for many reasons.

> we should not use km/h as well, since for SI base unites are m/s, but 3.6 is not an easy conversion

Correct. I have used both km/h (because obviously society forces it) and m/s in various applications and calculations. Using m/s is much more helpful for visualizing distances traveled in a short span of time, and also calculating acceleration (in m/s^2, never km/h/s), kinetic energy, etc.

Re: Common mistakes when using the metric system

#100

> Use 1008 MJ monthly electrical energy consumption instead of 280 kW⋅h monthly electrical energy consumption > Avoid common non-SI units (suggested)... For serious science and engineering, SI units like metres per second should be used instead. Yeah good luck with that... electrical power engineering speaks in kWh not MJ > 150 pJ gamma ray instead of 938 MeV gamma ray Particle physicists will hate you if you take el…

> good luck with that... electrical power engineering speaks in kWh not MJ

Then it's industry-specific jargon. Note that some places bill your natural gas consumption in megajoules. Food energy is quoted in kilojoules in SI, or calorie/Calorie/kilocalorie otherwise.

The problem is that if you want to make any comparisons, you need to use the same units.

An athlete eats 100 Calories, gets on an exercise bike, and powers a 100-watt light bulb for 3000 seconds. What is her thermodynamic efficiency?

To make the 500 km journey, the old car consumed 1 GJ worth of heat energy in gasoline. The new electric car consumed 300 kW⋅h. Which one consumed less energy?

> Particle physicists will hate you if you take electron volts from them

I can understand why they love their traditional unit of measurement.

The problem is that their unit measures the same type of quantity (energy) as an existing SI unit - the joule.

We've seen this play out in countless industries already, where they have their own specific units and refuse to interoperate.

Heating in BTUs, cooling in tons, explosions in kilotons of TNT, barrels of oil.

Astronomy in light-years or parsecs or astronomical units, typesetting in points, football in yards (instead of feet), microscopic things constantly compared to the width of a human hair, ~5 different scales of shoe sizes across the world.

> it is incorrect to attach letters or other symbols to the unit in order to provide information about the quantity or its conditions of measurement

I agree with this rule. I guess if you write it out in words, it would be:

* Incorrect: "Power: 480 volt-amps-reactive (VAR)"

* Correct: "Power (reactive): 480 volt-amps (V⋅A)"

* Correct: "Reactive power: 480 volt-amps (V⋅A)"

By the way, you can link to a specific page like this: https://physics.nist.gov/cuu/pdf/sp811.pdf#page=16

Post reply on HN