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Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

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Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#91

Post by InsomniacL »

eesmith wrote: post #63
InsomniacL wrote: post #2

Seems wrong that Ireland cheated the system to attract tech companies then also gets a huge payout.

I think you should be cautious about saying "Ireland cheated the system". The onus is placed more directly on the Irish tax authority, and then more broadly the government, and then more broadly the voting population, and only then the entire population. Consider how the ruling says "Ireland had renounced tax revenue, which had given rise to a loss of State resources". This means many people living in Ireland got les…

> This means many people living in Ireland got less government resources than they would have

No it doesn't. Ireland did this deal to benefit from it. What they lost from direct tax in one area they gained in others. Had Ireland not made this deal, it's unlikely it would have become the conduit for Apple profits from around the world.

The subject of the ruling contains "concerning tax rulings issued by Ireland in favour of Apple"

Just because a country has children and immigrants does not absolve it of criticism.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#92

Post by Iulioh »

andy_ppp wrote: post #51

It would just be really good if companies stopped avoiding tax. Most countries are already pretty much bankrupt - it's worth thinking about for every debt (US National Debt is $35.35 trillion!!) there is a rich person on the end of it with the loan as an asset earning interest. If companies avoid tax and rich people avoid tax it means more tax for normal people who work for a living.

Its just the prisoner dilemma.

If you don't your competition will.

We just need more spine in the country's legislation to close ANY loophole, because this wasn't illegal tax evasion, it was legal tax ellusion.

The point is that EU judged this unfair by Ireland and that effectively it stole revenue from other European counties to favor jobs in ireland.

Basically saying "you (country) can't have a lower tax rate than X" in our economic union.

Smaller countries with few industries would benefit disproportionately from bigger companies moving here the HQ.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#93

Post by surgical_fire »

whacko_quacko wrote: post #26
xbmcuser wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you give Apple the leeway to do what a company has to and not Ireland to do what a country has to succeed that's very hypocritical of you.

It's not, because Ireland chose to be part of the EU which its actions are undermining. Also, we accept the fact that in capitalism companies have the goal to maximize profit, but the purpose of a country is not to maximize tax income compared to others

> we accept the fact that in capitalism companies have the goal to maximize profit

Not by committing tax avoidance.

This is why stronger regulations and tax laws are welcome. I fully expect every corporation to pursue profit no matter how illegal their actions are, and no matter gow much damage they cause to society.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#94

Post by justinclift »

robertlagrant wrote: post #59
seydor wrote: post #39

> "We always pay all the taxes we owe wherever we operate and there has never been a special deal," he said. Ιf that is true it should be easy to prove. Letting them pay peanuts is an insult to the whole of EU by the Irish government

Insult-driven thinking is really, really low grade.

So why do it?

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#95

Post by Macha »

graemep wrote: post #71
Y_Y wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Eire" is a weird exonym. The country this happened in is called Ireland (officially and colloquially). It's a republic and shares the island (also called Ireland) with a non-sovereign country called Northern Ireland. It's often referred to as the Republic of Ireland, which is a fine description, but not the official name. In the Irish language, the name of the country is "Éire", but saying that in English is like sa…

Ireland can also refer to the whole island though, so it can be ambiguous. We have the same problem, even worse, with people calling the EU "Europe".

Do you also avoid using the names of Korea, Georgia and China?

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#96

Post by fullspectrumdev »

quonn wrote: post #60
csomar wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea was that these big companies will move back to the big centers (Paris/Frankfurt) once they have to pay the same taxes. That didn't happen (surprise) and Ireland is now ending up with a tax deluge and high value tech companies.

The idea was that these big companies and the Irish government obey the law.

What’s interesting is the deal Apple got was fine under Irish law at the time.

Nobody foresaw how things would pan out literally decades later.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#97

Post by librasteve »

Y_Y wrote: post #53
librasteve wrote: post #12

prior to brexit, the UK lost a ton of US inward direct investment to Eire … Dell, Intel, Apple etc. the factors were Eire corporation tax was low and public policy was to footdrag in the attempts to set an EU minimum tax, fantastic lobbying by Irish representatives in Washington leveraging the big Irish diaspora, big subsidies that walked to the edge of the EU rules (as seen here), and an English speaking workforce w…

"Eire" is a weird exonym. The country this happened in is called Ireland (officially and colloquially). It's a republic and shares the island (also called Ireland) with a non-sovereign country called Northern Ireland. It's often referred to as the Republic of Ireland, which is a fine description, but not the official name. In the Irish language, the name of the country is "Éire", but saying that in English is like sa…

will do

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#98

Post by surgical_fire »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #56
marcyb5st wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The major problem is that Ireland, Netherlands, and Luxembourg also have veto powers when it comes to EU wide regulations. Luckily they understood this was alienating the other EU members and so they conceded to a minimum of 15% taxation rate [1] [1] https://taxation-customs.ec.europa.eu/taxation/business-taxa...

Yes, they are small and weak and had to concede to the big and powerful... And "alienating" is exactly my point: Those big and powerful don't want others to set lower tax rates than they have.

This is not a bad thing. In isolation those countries would be weaker, and would have a lot less negotiating power against bigger countries.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#99

Post by dgrin91 »

andy_ppp wrote: post #51

It would just be really good if companies stopped avoiding tax. Most countries are already pretty much bankrupt - it's worth thinking about for every debt (US National Debt is $35.35 trillion!!) there is a rich person on the end of it with the loan as an asset earning interest. If companies avoid tax and rich people avoid tax it means more tax for normal people who work for a living.

This is a very naive way of thinking about debt. Cash has a time value. Cash now is worth more than cash later.

I have a mortgage. This mortgage is worth more than the cash I own. That doesn't mean I'm bankrupt. The mortgage is paid on a fixed schedule over 30 years, and during those 30 years I'll have a home and be able to accrue other assets. If I didn't get a mortgage then I would still be saving for my home.

The same is true with the US balance sheet. It has accrued 35T in debt, but it's used that to fund it's operations. Those operations generate more for the US. As long as the US has enough to pay it's obligations over the next few decades there are no issues

That of course doesn't change the fact that tax loopholes can be problematic

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