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What to do about America's killer cars

economist.com

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Re: What to do about America's killer cars

#91

Post by _yb2s »

ryandrake wrote: post #53
SoftTalker wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but a farmer's pickup truck used to look like this... https://i.pinimg.com/originals/6c/a8/29/6ca8299cb79d89b811da... ... and now it looks like this... https://i.ytimg.com/vi/LDHolYeplpg/maxresdefault.jpg

These trucks seem to be deliberately designed and styled to look meaner, belligerent, and menacing. Like a gigantic fist driving down the highway shouting "Stay out of my way!" Are these personality extensions for a population that is getting meaner and more belligerent every year? These trucks (and some cars, to be fair) visibly project hostility . As a commenter put it in a past HN article, "Emissions requirements…

I think you are unfairly judging people different from you with a stereotype- the standard culture war behavior of demonizing and dehumanizing other groups.

That particular truck is a special performance model, trying to look supercar aggressive, and loaded with expensive hardware typically used only on desert racing trucks. This is a long standing thing car manufacturers do- look at the Subaru WRX STI or the 80s VW GTI for example. Wildly impractical, and usually sold at small volumes to draw attention and buyers for other models.

The regular F150 to me looks tacky, cheap, overly trendy, and faux futuristic but not aggressive. You see basically the same styling elements - lots of non functional protrusions and sharp angles - in economy cars like the Prius, it is the current trend. I think it looks awful.

Earlier this year I borrowed a family members 4 door short bed F150 with a lightweight pop up camper on the back for a family road trip where we explored offroad in desert national parks. The vehicle makes a ton of sense for uses like this- it was excellent offroad, just enough room for a family inside, and could carry gear for a week of camping in the back, without the risk of heavy items like firewood and tools hurting the passengers. We had all of the comfort of an RV with about 1/4 the fuel use, and the ability to drive and park anywhere easily. I can see why people buy them for this type of use, they are perfect for it.

Re: What to do about America's killer cars

#92

Post by mitthrowaway2 »

paulmd wrote: post #90
mitthrowaway2 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One big difference, from a "killer cars" perspective, is the height of the front hood: https://www.carsized.com/en/cars/compare/honda-odyssey-2014-... (Sorry they don't seem to have the Windstar on carsized, but the honda odyssey is a pretty close match). Station wagons and SUVs are different vehicles. SUVs are basically extended-cab sedans, whereas SUVs are built with higher ground clearance and a higher-center of g…

no need to apologize, I was just using a windstar as an example of a generic 90s minivan, not as some super specific example. :) that's an interesting comparison tool! but yeah my point is more related to size and capacity than things like chassis. the fact that the windstar is comparably sized is the point I was trying to make. it's a fair point that the hood is significantly different though, and I think that seems…

Thanks!

Weight matters for a vehicle -vehicle collision, but for a vehicle-pedestrian collision, it's nearly irrelevant. (This is because the physics goes like M/(M+m); there's an asymptote, and once M>5m it's practically the same as infinity).

But height (especially of the front hood) is very dangerous, both for collision interactions and visibility. That's more or less why the chassis matters from a pedestrian safety perspective. Vehicles getting taller makes streets more dangerous, even if they weren't getting heavier at the same time.

Re: What to do about America's killer cars

#93

Post by consteval »

lumb63 wrote: post #28
misun78 wrote: post #3

Let me be the first one to say it - anyone who drives a large pick-up truck for non-commercial reasons is a grade A asshole. SUV drivers aren't that far off, though I sympathize with the game theory element of buying SUVs to protect against other larger cars -- but I would expect you to take accountability and drive slower and safer than smaller cars. These monstrosities are environmentally unfriendly, pedestrian unf…

If your goal is to reduce the amount of pickup trucks and SUVs on the road, then you’re going to have to convince people who drive those vehicles to stop. Opening by calling that audience “grade A assholes” is probably not winning anyone over toward your cause. You’d probably have better luck telling them how beneficial it would be for them, those they care about, their community, etc., rather than taking an adversar…

The only way to do this is by:

1. Forcing those cars to stop being made, or made differently

2. Require special requirements, like a new license

3. Have a special tax

It's all money and politics. Mean words mean nothing, you can't convince people to do stuff that way.

Re: What to do about America's killer cars

#94

Post by consteval »

rootusrootus wrote: post #33
misun78 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You haven't explained why but I can preemptively say it isn't. Go outside the confines of American suburbia/countryside and you will see how out of touch these vehicles are to sustainable and healthy living.

Sure, but that applies just as well to driving any car, eating any meat, etc. Very little of modern human living is particularly sustainable or healthy.

It doesn't apply just as well because there's unique challenges. For example, SUVs and trucks being over an order of magnitude more dangerous for pedestrians.

We have got to stop hand-waving things as "well other stuff!"

You're 100% right, car dependency as a whole is a big problem. One that we need to move away from and towards more sustainable modes of transportation. However, that is a big task. One part of that task is deconstructing the American obsession with ego-boosting via motor vehicle.

That means you, trucks and SUVs.

Re: What to do about America's killer cars

#95

Post by consteval »

causality0 wrote: post #24
misun78 wrote: post #3

Let me be the first one to say it - anyone who drives a large pick-up truck for non-commercial reasons is a grade A asshole. SUV drivers aren't that far off, though I sympathize with the game theory element of buying SUVs to protect against other larger cars -- but I would expect you to take accountability and drive slower and safer than smaller cars. These monstrosities are environmentally unfriendly, pedestrian unf…

Blame the EPA for forcing vehicles larger and larger using a nonsensical method of calculating efficiency requirements. Companies would be happy to sell compact pickup trucks that got 30mpg but they aren't allowed.

Not true, the reason trucks and SUVs are made and pushed so much is they are high-margin vehicles.

You make WAY more money per unit of work selling a truck or SUV. Sedans, in comparison, make much less money. Hence, all the ads you'll see are aimed at big vehicles.

The manufacturers can make smaller vehicles but it's a stupid idea to do so. You leave money on the table - and for what? Just make the ride higher and you can automatically mark up another 20%.

Re: What to do about America's killer cars

#96

Post by consteval »

mcmcmc wrote: post #26
misun78 wrote: post #3

Let me be the first one to say it - anyone who drives a large pick-up truck for non-commercial reasons is a grade A asshole. SUV drivers aren't that far off, though I sympathize with the game theory element of buying SUVs to protect against other larger cars -- but I would expect you to take accountability and drive slower and safer than smaller cars. These monstrosities are environmentally unfriendly, pedestrian unf…

Yeah, and fuck everyone who lives in the country and has large animals, or anyone who wants to haul a camper or trailer. A subcompact can fit like two bales of hay, surely that’s enough right?

Should be obvious he's referring to the city. Don't know why people do this thing where they make up an argument nobody has made, and then proceed to get mad over it. It's very weird, stop doing that. At this point y'all are rage baiting yourselves.

Re: What to do about America's killer cars

#97

Post by consteval »

binary132 wrote: post #89
timbit42 wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's safer for those in the larger vehicle but more people die in large/small vehicle accidents than the accidents where both vehicles are the same size. If your vehicle causes the death of someone, that death should be considered pre-meditated.

“You should increase the chances of death of your family because it might decrease someone else’s chance of death” is not a compelling argument that will work naturally on most people.

Correct, it's a tragedy of the commons situation. This is just an unfortunate reality of the unavoidable human desire for selfish actions.

The only way to fix this is to Iron Fist it. We need to attack people with legislation and taxes, not with words.

Re: What to do about America's killer cars

#98

Post by pasttense01 »

hedora wrote: post #54
misun78 wrote: post #3

Let me be the first one to say it - anyone who drives a large pick-up truck for non-commercial reasons is a grade A asshole. SUV drivers aren't that far off, though I sympathize with the game theory element of buying SUVs to protect against other larger cars -- but I would expect you to take accountability and drive slower and safer than smaller cars. These monstrosities are environmentally unfriendly, pedestrian unf…

I think the bigger problem is that cars keep getting taller for no reason. Other than the cybertruck, larger vehicles have been trending more and more towards adding pedestrian safety features. However, the same vehicles are taller than they used to be, making them less safe, and generally worse. Who wants to lift crap an extra foot into their pickup truck bed, and need a frigging step to get into the side door? The…

Think about going off-roading in your new $100,000 vehicle [although something I wouldn't do if I had such a vehicle]. Suppose there is a big boulder or you want to cross some water: you need the height!

Re: What to do about America's killer cars

#99

Post by trog »

defrost wrote: post #76
trog wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This misses the point and it's why talking about cars is so annoying if you're a person who doesn't give a shit about cars. How often do you tow your utility trailer? If you do it every day because you need it for work, then having a big truck probably makes sense. But if you're like many people who have trucks, you probably do this once a year, if ever, but still feel like you "need" a truck for these occasions. It'…

> How often do you tow your utility trailer? If you do it every day because you need it for work, then having a big truck probably makes sense. Nope. We're in Australia, we have a 35 year old home over built double axle heavy steel frame trailer built to handle off road conditions in the north west; it's got heavy duty leaf springs, slaved brakes, can take some serious load tonnage and gets used weekly (still, and ha…

That is awesome.

Re: What to do about America's killer cars

#100

Post by kortilla »

throw0101c wrote: post #80
kortilla wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone who thinks large pickup trucks are only for “commercial use” is a knuckle-dragging city-dweller. Now that we both have the name calling out of the way, how would you suggest I tow my utility trailer without a truck?

> Now that we both have the name calling out of the way, how would you suggest I tow my utility trailer without a truck? Congratulations on being part of the 7% that uses their pickup truck to tow "regularly": * https://www.axios.com/ford-pickup-trucks-history As opposed to the 63% who self report rarely/never, and 29% occasionally. For your question, the first detail of import would be what weight capacity do you ne…

15,000 pounds
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