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Starlink Defies Order to Block X in Brazil

nytimes.com

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Re: Starlink Defies Order to Block X in Brazil

#91

Post by tmottabr »

diegoholiveira wrote: post #71
defrost wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's no visible rhyme or reason why .. Somebody made a case in an earlier thread (that I haven't had time to pursue) that Brazil has the largest lithium mining company (not fields or mines) with standing contracts in South America .. and they claimed that Musk wants to seed unrest | see Bolsonaro (or his party) back in to get a better deal on raw materials for his battery factories in Texas. That has a plausible…

Australians already own those lithium mines. The largest here in Brazil is very close to my hometown.

Latin america have the world largest Lithium reserves, specially accross Argentina, Bolivia and Chile being the three largest and Brazil being the 7th..

The largest lithium mining company in the region is Sigma Lithium..

Tesla was negotiating to buy the Sigma Lithium but now the Chinese BYD is the favorite.. [0] [1]

China companies are currently owning the EV market in Brazil , and many other developing contries, and they have plans for both cars and batteries factories in Brazil, but they need access to lithium for that and so they are going for the lithium mining companies as well..

Musk not only need the lithium but he also want to block the grow of Chinese companies that are owning the market in many developing countries where Tesla is not present and are even growing fast in Europe..

Musk expect that a right wing government will align with him, and be in favor of blocking China and that would open the door for him to buy the mining companies instead..

[0] https://www.reuters.com/technology/tesla-considering-bid-sig...

[1] https://www.ft.com/content/3c55d69b-6932-4255-ad79-daeced372...

Re: Starlink Defies Order to Block X in Brazil

#92

Post by defrost »

diegoholiveira wrote: post #71
defrost wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's no visible rhyme or reason why .. Somebody made a case in an earlier thread (that I haven't had time to pursue) that Brazil has the largest lithium mining company (not fields or mines) with standing contracts in South America .. and they claimed that Musk wants to seed unrest | see Bolsonaro (or his party) back in to get a better deal on raw materials for his battery factories in Texas. That has a plausible…

Australians already own those lithium mines. The largest here in Brazil is very close to my hometown.

I'm not across the current ownership breakdowns and state partnerships in South America (once upon a time I'd have quoted such things down to share percentages and layered subsidiary's) - the comment intrigued me as it's plausible there is some resource advantage to be gained by siding with one side of politics in Brazil, it's certainly the case that many large scale international dramas have at their core something that tracks back to resources and potential profits.

Controlling percentages can change, as can state restrictions on a number of conditions.

As I said it's not something I've dug into the details of.

Re: Starlink Defies Order to Block X in Brazil

#93

Post by orwin »

mrmlz wrote: post #52
orwin wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What sender and tone? The issue is that an individual show power superior to that of a state. And a powerful and rich one at that. I would care if he did the same to Turkey or India where similar demand were made (it wasn't legislative power there, but still). I really appreciate the fact that he called Brazil out, i would have really appreciated if he called India or Turkey out, i think this is going too far. And as…

I guess you would be on the barricades fighting for DDRs right to suppress free speech as well. I take whatever victories I can. I don't care about his motives, I'm sure they are nefarious or money related. But that doesn't matter. I don't care about his motivation I care about the results.

The result will be that speech will be suppressed for 99% of the population and only a select few can talk. If it was a principled position the effects would be 10 times greater but since he compromised himself for money, the effects would be minimal.

I've thought about it more. I think the reason why he refused was because it was a public court order, so everyone could see him cooperate. If they did it like Erdoğan or Modi, i.e with private communication, Twitter would have done it.

If this is the reason, it's in fact Anti-free speech, as transparency is a pillar of that right, no?

[edit] Also, free personal attacks twice now, really nice of you.

Re: Starlink Defies Order to Block X in Brazil

#94

Post by matheusmoreira »

olivierduval wrote: post #62
hereme888 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The judge is violating the constitution of his own country and engaging in censorship of political opponents.

Is X a bralizian institution ? I don't think so... so X has no right to oppose this decision ! If the judge decision is illegal, that's the problem of the brazilian political and law system, and of the brazilian People. But X is not a brazilian citizen AFAIK... so it either follow the rules, leave the country or is illegal. Moreover, when Starlink refuse to respect a court order, Starlink is although a problem (be it…

People can do whatever they want. They just need to accept the consequences.

I post my comments here knowing there's a risk this judge might learn of my existence and persecute me for them. I chose to accept that risk because I find this situation to appalling to keep quiet about it. This wasn't a choice I made lightly. My own parents who lived through last century's military dictatorship recognized the signs and asked me to stop commenting online. They feared this guy might order my arrest and generally ruin my life. Their fears are not unfounded.

So I respect Elon Musk for this utterly political move. He accepted the consequences and did something few others would do. I can respect that. I have no doubt he has hidden self-serving reasons behind this move but that's an analysis for another day. Right now I'm just interested in the political ramifications this will have for my nation.

Re: Starlink Defies Order to Block X in Brazil

#95

Post by smitty1e »

olivierduval wrote: post #55

Sorry I don't get: how is possible to find anybody defending Musk when the Supreme Court of a democracy ruled to exclude X from the country ? Free speech is a good thing AS LONG AS it respect the country laws. In France, the People decided democratically (through their elected representatives) against some kinds of so-called "free speech" (for example: racism apology). That's OUR choice, on OUR territory (like it or…

Another take on the matter is that Brazil is a trial run for a general global crackdown on unfettered communication.

Your hint that Brazil have the USG give Elon Musk the Pavel Durov treatment is chilling, indeed.

I guess after HN is shut down, a Martin Niemöller moment might find you. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_...

Re: Starlink Defies Order to Block X in Brazil

#96

Post by pyrale »

flotzam wrote: post #8

Just how important are the ground stations in Brazil? (I don't mean the end user terminals.) If Starlink will basically continue to work well enough if those are seized, it seems like the obvious next steps are going to be crypto/stablecoin payments and a focus on small form factor terminals like Starlink Mini that can bypass customs.

This is a path that ends with Starlink being unable to respect the law in other jurisdictions, and getting progressively banned elsewhere, or Musk getting jailed on foreign trips like the Telegram CEO.

There is a reason why legit companies tend to avoid using the same tools and methods as drug cartels.

Re: Starlink Defies Order to Block X in Brazil

#97

Post by piva00 »

defrost wrote: post #31
piva00 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The court orders for Twitter in Brazil were way more tame and based on judicial procedures than orders that Elon followed from Turkey and other less democratic countries. There's no visible rhyme or reason why he's fighting the Brazilian courts much harder than orders from other less democratic countries, something else is happening unrelated to free speech or any lip service he pays to.

> There's no visible rhyme or reason why .. Somebody made a case in an earlier thread (that I haven't had time to pursue) that Brazil has the largest lithium mining company (not fields or mines) with standing contracts in South America .. and they claimed that Musk wants to seed unrest | see Bolsonaro (or his party) back in to get a better deal on raw materials for his battery factories in Texas. That has a plausible…

Bolsonaro wanted to remove environmental protections and exploit mining resources in the Amazon, I feel this to be the only real reason why Elon has started to pushback hard against a Lula government who is driving Brazil back into protecting the Amazon (at least somewhat, still much more than openly supporting illegal mining as Bolsonaro's government did).

Re: Starlink Defies Order to Block X in Brazil

#98

Post by edanm »

mcosta wrote: post #90
olivierduval wrote: post #55

Sorry I don't get: how is possible to find anybody defending Musk when the Supreme Court of a democracy ruled to exclude X from the country ? Free speech is a good thing AS LONG AS it respect the country laws. In France, the People decided democratically (through their elected representatives) against some kinds of so-called "free speech" (for example: racism apology). That's OUR choice, on OUR territory (like it or…

[flagged]

> In Israel, the People decided democratically (through their elected representatives) against some kinds of so-called "free speech" (for example: Palestine existence)

This is both completely untrue, and has nothing to do with this post.

Re: Starlink Defies Order to Block X in Brazil

#99

Post by matheusmoreira »

piva00 wrote: post #14
cjpearson wrote: post #2

Is this a principled defense of free speech or a case of a man treating ostensibly independent companies as divisions of his personal conglomerate?

The court orders for Twitter in Brazil were way more tame and based on judicial procedures than orders that Elon followed from Turkey and other less democratic countries. There's no visible rhyme or reason why he's fighting the Brazilian courts much harder than orders from other less democratic countries, something else is happening unrelated to free speech or any lip service he pays to.

> There's no visible rhyme or reason why he's fighting the Brazilian courts much harder than orders from other less democratic countries

I've read speculation that he's after our lithium mines. Not sure how true that is yet but I don't doubt it.

Re: Starlink Defies Order to Block X in Brazil

#100

Post by matheusmoreira »

malermeister wrote: post #3

[flagged]

Yeah, let's start a war with the USA by shooting down their satellites. What could go wrong?

Brazil does not have anti-satellite capabilities anyway. Brazil barely has guided missiles, it barely has rockets. Our space program is such a joke the brazilian military actually published a report detailing how the interference with Starlink is going to impact their operations. Starlink brought more internet and connectivity to the Amazon than the state ever did or ever will.

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