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Telegram founder charged with wide range of crimes in France

nytimes.com

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Re: Telegram founder charged with wide range of crimes in France

#91

Post by hagbard_c »

dools wrote: post #82
hagbard_c wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yeah the only difference is that one person is right and the other person is wrong. Says everyone. While there are clear examples where this is the case - e.g. SARS2 vaccines do not protect against infection nor do they protect against infecting others - there are many other situations where 'right' and 'wrong' are not so clearly defined. When someone claims a certain party or presidential candidate is a 'threat to…

[flagged]

> It's also telling that in a discussion about Telegram, we have arrived at covid vaccines

It is telling on the fact that the Biden/Harris regime pressured a number of companies to censor information related to SARS2 and the mandatory vaccination campaigns which I gave as an example, hence the mentioning of this subject.

> and you joined HN in 2023

I joined in 2013 but that account got shadowbanned during the pandemic when I suggested it was bad practice for the Twitter leadership to ban people who did not follow the desired narrative while they allowed Iran's Khamenei, the Taliban's Zabiullah Mujahid and other similar malcontents to spout propaganda on their site. I did this by linking to a post on Ben Shapiro's 'The Daily Wire' which seemed to be enough to get banned.

Do you now understand why it is important that services allow people to venture beyond the desired narrative?

> so, you know, Плевать, ватник.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatnik

A 'Vatnik' is a jingoistic follower of government propaganda, one who uncritically follows whatever the government pushes. I think this is quite fitting given the context of this discussion, probably not in the way you intended but fitting nevertheless.

Re: Telegram founder charged with wide range of crimes in France

#92

Post by [deleted] »

Shank wrote: post #28
tucnak wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting that this comment is down-voted. I think it's worth noting that Telegram LLC—as organisation itself—is anomalous to the point where it's consistent with Russian "cover" doctrine. For example, you wouldn't find ex-Telegram employees on Linkedin, Telegram itself seemingly doesn't invite people for interviews, there's no ex-Telegram people in the industry. Their open source software is developed using fake-u…

> Telegram doesn't seem to compete for engineering talent on labour market, Telegram employees don't go to conferences, are never seen on mailing lists of open source projects, etc. Isn't the whole narrative that Durov, who is essentially extremely rich as a result of building VK, bankrolled the whole creation? For all of the criticism, Telegram remains one of the most highly polished and well-designed apps I've ever…

[deleted]

Re: Telegram founder charged with wide range of crimes in France

#93

Post by hagbard_c »

dools wrote: post #83
madars wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>why do you think there's no anti-anaesthetics movement? for one, I've never been required to get anesthesia as a condition of employment. lumping all vaccines together is not productive and we don't do that when discussing painkillers. there is a movement against OxyContin but not a movement against Ibuprofen.

> for one, I've never been required to get anesthesia as a condition of employment You've been required to get anaesthesia as a condition of getting dental work done, or any number of routine day procedures, or more serious operations. Maybe you've never had to have anaesthetic at all, but you certainly will at some point in your life. > lumping all vaccines together is not productive and we don't do that when discus…

> You've been required to get anaesthesia as a condition of getting dental work done

Odd, that has always been optional where I've lived - the Netherlands and Sweden, mostly. I understand that is is a requirement for very large operations but for normal procedures it has never been a requirement.

> covid vaccine story (and story about vaccines generally)

Why do you insist on lumping together these two very disparate cases? There is an enormous gap between the small cohort of people who distrust established vaccines - e.g. those administered to children, those needed when travelling to the tropics, etc. - and the large cohort who distrust the experimental SARS2 therapeutics which were forced upon the masses in different ways. All you achieve by lumping these two together is to increase distrust in established vaccines, both by exposing the second cohort to the arguments of the first as well as by the fact that the negative side effects of the SARS2 therapeutics are slowly but surely being published to a wider audience.

Re: Telegram founder charged with wide range of crimes in France

#94

Post by numpad0 »

thefz wrote: post #45
sschueller wrote: post #19

If Durov is liable for crimes committed on his platform how far away are we from making phone companies and ISPs liable for crimes committed using their services? This is a very slippery slope. I don't see a problem with requiring a company to cooperate with a court order to release data. However if a company does not have this data (because it's encrypted) it should not be liable or be required to collect such data.

> If Durov is liable for crimes committed on his platform how far away are we from making phone companies and ISPs liable for crimes committed using their services? > This is a very slippery slope. I wonder what is hard to understand. Is there CP/violent content in Instagram? Nope. In Facebook? Nope. In YouTube? nope. Why? These companies are held responsible for the public content, published in clear, on their platf…

Some of European countries has CP laws written to scratch moral itch, they can SWAT raid anyone screenshotting some games on App Store and their courts aren't going to care.

And then there's likely a real CP sharing groups on some of those platforms: algorithms work as invisible cloak for those groups, and we in the public without that preference won't have idea until police discovers one through a confiscated phone.

Re: Telegram founder charged with wide range of crimes in France

#95

Post by harryf »

ralfn wrote: post #80
harryf wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Platforms like Signal can get away with this because they are properly E2E encrypted, and cannot identify illegal content. Signal isn't magically protected by proper E2E encryption. When the time comes to take them down legally, all that's needed is evidence from end users phones demonstrating illegal activities occurring over Signal. But - for now - Signal seems to have better friends and or be upsetting less auth…

>To me it's pretty clear reason why they've gone after Telegram is the Channels and Groups. Seen from a certain perspective Telegram channels are an alternative to Reddit, and have been popular medium during COVID and the Ukraine war for "alternative news". By now Reddit is properly controlled and subdued but Telegram isn't. This is full on speculation. Right now the reality is you can buy underage people, drugs and…

> This is full on speculation.

Speculation is a crucial part of decision-making, especially in geopolitics, where hard data is often scarce. Governments frequently act on leading indicators to preempt potential threats, whether it's about national security or information control. Dismissing this as "pure speculation" overlooks how critical decisions are made in complex, rapidly evolving situations.

> Playing the "free speech" card is disingenuous.

This isn't about free speech; it's about narrative control, especially with the upcoming U.S. election. Controlling platforms like Telegram and TikTok is crucial for influencing public discourse. Recent U.S. regulations targeting TikTok further highlight how critical it is for governments to manage the flow of information as elections approach.

Re: Telegram founder charged with wide range of crimes in France

#96

Post by BlueTemplar »

sschueller wrote: post #19

If Durov is liable for crimes committed on his platform how far away are we from making phone companies and ISPs liable for crimes committed using their services? This is a very slippery slope. I don't see a problem with requiring a company to cooperate with a court order to release data. However if a company does not have this data (because it's encrypted) it should not be liable or be required to collect such data.

Somewhat - ISPs and phone companies (and web(site) hosting companies) tend to be less liable because they don't engage into editorializing :

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41390173

(Algorithmic feeds are very popular amongst platforms, not sure that Telegram does that too though ?)

Re: Telegram founder charged with wide range of crimes in France

#97

Post by BlueTemplar »

JTyQZSnP3cQGa8B wrote: post #78
yorwba wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Non-copypasta source: https://x.com/canardenchaine/status/1828438807697408059 (When Zlatti_71 signs off with "Remylind23" and can't spell the name of the French newspaper they're attributing, doesn't that make you a bit suspicious? And Le Canard enchaîné is a satirical newspaper, so it's not inconceivable that the story is made-up.)

It has a sarcastic tone but it is one of the best newspaper for the sources. Other newspapers regularly cite them.

The question is whether that statement is a joke or not (they do both).

Re: Telegram founder charged with wide range of crimes in France

#98

Post by BlueTemplar »

NayamAmarshe wrote: post #85
simion314 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really, report them they have to take them down, if they do not take CP down then make a hacker News thread , you for sure will be on the top of the page.

Telegram regularly takes down such channels too but their mistake? They underestimated the moderation team size and move at a slower pace than other trillion dollar corpos.

The main mistake seems to have been to ignore requests from law enforcement - and since these requests allegedly only numbered in the dozens, it's not a team size issue.

Re: Telegram founder charged with wide range of crimes in France

#99

Post by BlueTemplar »

Arnt wrote: post #90
sofixa wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disclaimer: not a lawyer, just did some law courses in a couple of countries, including France. From the law 2004-575 [1], section 1, article 30: > I. - L'utilisation des moyens de cryptologie est libre. > II. - La fourniture, le transfert depuis ou vers un Etat membre de la Communauté européenne, l'importation et l'exportation des moyens de cryptologie assurant exclusivement des fonctions d'authentification ou de co…

Thanks, that's very useful. I wonder whether that final exception is intended to cover the kind of end-to-end encryption Signal does, or rather the kind of end-to-end encryption the Netflix app does. Digital rights management. It's not clear to me that those can be separated — doesn't Jitsi use the same in-browser code as Vimeo? But it's also not clear to me what "not accessible to the user" means, exactly.

Yeah, as far as I understand, exactly this : for instance you can't use the DRM embedded in HDMI for your own purposes, you have to be a licensee and get access to the source code (and a way to modify the chips) for that.

Somewhat relevant :

HDMI Forum rejects AMD's HDMI 2.1 open-source driver :

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41386667

Re: Telegram founder charged with wide range of crimes in France

#100

Post by gdsfg534 »

maeln wrote: post #79
gdsfg534 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The guy who is presumed to be the murderer is an ex-intelligence officer There's a "he resigned two weeks ago" meme in Russia. Every time a police officer or someone else from the government is caught red-handed committing a crime, it "turns out" they have allegedly resigned a few weeks prior to the incident. It seems Putin's regime is not an aberration, they're trailblazers.

Except the guy was working for the DCRI, which has turned into the DGSI since 2014. So it has been out of the police forces for at least 10 years. Not a few weeks ago. You can find a lot of information on french media, like https://www.leparisien.fr/faits-divers/reseau-franc-macon-de... What would be more concerning is that current member of the DGSE were planning a murder (in the same article). But then again, they…

> Finally, I do find it strange to argue with a brand new account who basically just post to defend Telegram.

Why do you find it strange? Do you consider self compilation of a dossier on yourself a healthier practice?

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