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Why do business analysts and PMs get higher salaries than programmers?

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Re: Why do business analysts and PMs get higher salaries than programmers?

#91

Post by jsmcgd »

I think that people higher up the chain get more money because that's how ultimately they are given authority. If someone who earned 25% of what you did, continually told you to do something that you disagreed with, you would probably think 'why am I listening to this guy telling me what to do?' This organisation doesn't value you as much as me, therefore I think my opinion is worth more than yours. Therefore I'm not going to do what you say. Consequently you don't have that much authority.

Something like that.

Re: Why do business analysts and PMs get higher salaries than programmers?

#92

Post by unimpressive »

scotty79 wrote: post #86
mprovost wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...but not on schedule.

Nothing ever get's built on schedule or within budget.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valve_Time#.22Valve_Time.22

Yes. But Valve is a bit of an extreme case.

Re: Why do business analysts and PMs get higher salaries than programmers?

#93

Post by scotty79 »

unimpressive wrote: post #92
scotty79 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing ever get's built on schedule or within budget.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valve_Time#.22Valve_Time.22 Yes. But Valve is a bit of an extreme case.

Just extremely honest about it.

Re: Why do business analysts and PMs get higher salaries than programmers?

#94

Post by beagle3 »

photon137 wrote: post #73
timsally wrote: post #10

The top rated comment on this question asserts that the reason why programmers have lower salaries is because they are logical, intelligent individuals who refuse to play the politics game and thus are hated by executives. Not only it this incorrect (have you seen the politics in certain open source software projects ?) but it plays into a narrative that programmers want to believe: business people are corrupt and pr…

I totally agree with this. I am a quant working at a bank writing trading strategies in C++. I have a colleague in "Infrastructure" (they call it) who sits two desks away from me and he writes C++ code that loads my code and runs it on a massive grid, does load balancing, interfacing and all kinds of cool stuff. Yet he's in a "cost-center" and I'm in a revenue-center when, basically, without his work my code would be…

> Think about it, a programmer can very well exist without BAs/PMS etc but BAs/PMs can't exist without programmers.

I do a lot of programming, but I think I bring a lot more value in the programming I avoid (or otherwise stop from happening).

Code is always a liability. Functionality is often an asset.

A BAs/PMs can reach the conclusion that a private label implementation (or 3 of them, with some outsourced integration work outsourced to competent integrators) is a much better solution, whereas a programmer (with any ingrained survival instinct) is unlikely to say "you need to fire me and all my team, and outsource this", or even think that, regardless of how true it is.

So, BAs/PMs can exist without programmers, and often do.

The reason you are getting more money than your friend is that (a) he is easier to replace, (b) you - or at least people in your group - can demonstrate your worth to the company, and (c) if you go to work for a competitor, the knowledge that will leak through you is much more harmful to your current employer and helpful to your new employer.

Re: Why do business analysts and PMs get higher salaries than programmers?

#95

Post by photon137 »

brazzy wrote: post #78
photon137 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I totally agree with this. I am a quant working at a bank writing trading strategies in C++. I have a colleague in "Infrastructure" (they call it) who sits two desks away from me and he writes C++ code that loads my code and runs it on a massive grid, does load balancing, interfacing and all kinds of cool stuff. Yet he's in a "cost-center" and I'm in a revenue-center when, basically, without his work my code would be…

> Think about it, a programmer can very well exist without BAs/PMS etc but BAs/PMs can't exist without programmers. That's exactly the same kind of self-bullshitting your parent comment was arguing against. NONE of the parts of a business can really work effectively without the others. A bunch of super-smart skilled programmers with attitudes, no leaders and no clear requirements is going to produce a lot of efficien…

I'll counter that - even not-so smart programmers with enormous egos would be able to ship something clunky, partly broken, not feature-perfect etc. (case in point: Linux - do you think they required full-time BAs to manage this very nicely working, feature-rich product? They did the BA/PM work themselves with Linus and others as anchors).

A team of super-smart skilled BA/PMs will produce zero, zilch, nada if there are no programmers.

"super-smart skilled programmers with attitudes" would figure out their priorities and the needs of their architecture. That's why Valve said that the single most important task is hiring - if you don't have super-smart people who can put egos and politics aside in favor of actually shipping something great, then you need BAs/PMs.

It's only when "who's doing what" becomes a problem that BAs etc are needed. If programmers were willing to spend some time doing "BA-work" and are willing to be bombarded by customers with inane queries and are willing to ask them questions to elicit their needs, then there'd be no need for BAs/PMs.

The only reason BA/PMs exist is because there are only 24 hours in a day and programmers can't do the above.

Re: Why do business analysts and PMs get higher salaries than programmers?

#96

Post by justin_vanw »

The assumption that PMs, or anyone else, get higher salaries is just wrong. Depending on the company, pay scales are all over the place. At the company I am at now, 'Engineers' (valley speak for programmer) have the highest pay scale, meaning an Engineer is paid more than any other role at the same career level.

Some businesses see programmers as replaceable cogs. Some don't. If you are a really good developer, and you want to be paid well, one sure fire way to do it is to physically move to an area where great developers are in short supply. Silicon Valley is the nexus of demand in the US, for programming talent.

If you do our engineering challenge at http://www.codeeval.com/public_sc/48/ , we'll immediately get back to you. We are always looking for talented people, and working here is awesome.

Re: Why do business analysts and PMs get higher salaries than programmers?

#97

Post by unimpressive »

scotty79 wrote: post #93
unimpressive wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valve_Time#.22Valve_Time.22 Yes. But Valve is a bit of an extreme case.

Just extremely honest about it.

While I wouldn't necessarily disagree with that analysis, Valve time has more to do with announcing release dates and then going way over them than it does not shipping on internal deadlines.

Re: Why do business analysts and PMs get higher salaries than programmers?

#98

Post by photon137 »

beagle3 wrote: post #94
photon137 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I totally agree with this. I am a quant working at a bank writing trading strategies in C++. I have a colleague in "Infrastructure" (they call it) who sits two desks away from me and he writes C++ code that loads my code and runs it on a massive grid, does load balancing, interfacing and all kinds of cool stuff. Yet he's in a "cost-center" and I'm in a revenue-center when, basically, without his work my code would be…

> Think about it, a programmer can very well exist without BAs/PMS etc but BAs/PMs can't exist without programmers. I do a lot of programming, but I think I bring a lot more value in the programming I avoid (or otherwise stop from happening). Code is always a liability. Functionality is often an asset. A BAs/PMs can reach the conclusion that a private label implementation (or 3 of them, with some outsourced integrati…

"A BAs/PMs can reach the conclusion that a private label implementation (or 3 of them, with some outsourced integration work outsourced to competent integrators) is a much better solution, whereas a programmer (with any ingrained survival instinct) is unlikely to say "you need to fire me and all my team, and outsource this", or even think that, regardless of how true it is."

Ah, but that's management at a consultant-level - you can hire an external consultant to do that for you. A company (or at least I wouldn't) won't hire PM/BAs as permanent employees to do that kind of stuff - particularly when you need independent advice - BA/PMs also have survival instincts, you know - they will always insist on "project management" regardless of how trivial the task is - if their job is at risk.

(I think the quant vs developer example is an exception - the marginal returns for a bank investing in desk quants is more than that for investing in devs - although what's the critical ratio is something hard to determine)

Re: Why do business analysts and PMs get higher salaries than programmers?

#99

Post by jshen »

cube13 wrote: post #77
jshen wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you describe is a dysfunctional organization, not a justification for PMs.

Or a large, international organization with employees and clients all around the world, each of whom believe that their problem is the most important thing in the world.

I've worked for some of the largest corporations in the world, 3 of them in the fortune 100 one of which is a fortune 20 company.

I've seen it done well and done poorly at that scale. What the person I replied to was describing is a dysfunctional organization, not a functional large organization. Creating a large functional organization is just like creating good abstractions in software. You have to figure out how to structure things so that teams/business units can work together with minimal communication across teams.

Re: Why do business analysts and PMs get higher salaries than programmers?

#100

Post by mgkimsal »

lmkg wrote: post #45
timsally wrote: post #10

The top rated comment on this question asserts that the reason why programmers have lower salaries is because they are logical, intelligent individuals who refuse to play the politics game and thus are hated by executives. Not only it this incorrect (have you seen the politics in certain open source software projects ?) but it plays into a narrative that programmers want to believe: business people are corrupt and pr…

Programmers tend to think that programming is the most important part of making software. However, managers think that managing is the most important part of making software, and business analysts think that defining business requirements is the most important part of making software. Asking a room of programmers about the value of business analysts is going to result in feedback that is heavily biased. As you say, w…

"Programmers tend to think that programming is the most important part of making software. However, managers think that managing is the most important part of making software, and business analysts think that defining business requirements is the most important part of making software. Asking a room of programmers about the value of business analysts is going to result in feedback that is heavily biased. As you say, we've invented a narrative of moral superiority, and it's a seductive one."

I think I thought that way about 15 years ago or so, but by 10 years ago I realized that ... almost without exception, I can get the tech stuff done. Of course, I'd like to do it myself, but I can get others smarter than me at XYZ to do the tech stuff. While the tech stuff is sometimes hard, it's almost universally doable.

Have you ever had a project fail because you didn't know how to write to a file, take data input or query a database? I bet not. But... we've all had projects that failed because none of the people involved could accurately communicate what needed to be done (and in some cases, establish reasonable timelines for those needs). Communication is key, and PM/BA types are generally better at it than typical developer types. There are always exceptions, but the PM/BA types are perceived to be better at it, often because they're controlling the communication, almost by definition of their role.

So, while everyone thinks their part is the most important, they're pretty much all equally important, but the PM/BAs tend to be more visible on projects, rightly or wrongly.

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