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Thoughts on the Durov Arrest

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Re: Thoughts on the Durov Arrest

#91

Post by hcfman »

cheptsov wrote: post #2

“Summing up: for the time being, if you run a social media company, or if you provide encrypted messaging services, which are accessible in France, and you’re based in the United States, get out of Europe.”

Yeah, Europe is becoming more and more authoritarian and less and less demoractic.

The Netherlands, the host country of the ICC, in 2021 made a law that anyone that works in a job with an obligation to secrecy cannot be prosecuted for lying under oath in a court. They cited an example of a lawyer client confidenially. They did not however, talk about the fact that now everyone in government can lie under oath in court. This undermines the very functional principle of a court of law. Lovely for the ICC.

In addition, they created an organisation called the RIEC, with does not have a natural person as it's presentative, which under Dutch law means that it cannot be taken to court by anyone. The gave this organisation control over not just criminal investigations but "interventions", which have no definition and can be anything. They can do anything against anyone and not be held accountabile. And typically they do this through weak civilian proxies for further deniability.

There's a 6x part Dutch documentary where it shows that 9 innocent people were sent to jail on fabricated evidence. One committed suicide. The Dutch will not re-open this case and the responsible person (The former head of the organised crime unit in Arnhein) is not the president of the court of Maastricht. Not fired, promoted.

https://npo.nl/start/serie/de-villamoord/seizoen-2/de-leeuw-...

So the Netherlands has clearly loss a functional democracy.

It's the way all of Europe is going.

Re: Thoughts on the Durov Arrest

#92

Post by mr_mitm »

jiiam wrote: post #85
tptacek wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That user seems to be misinformed, and appears to be discussing client-server encryption, not end-to-end encryption. That's unsurprising, because, among the many decisions Durov has made that have baffled cryptographers, attempting to confuse users about the implications of E2E vs. client-server encryption is one of the most notorious.

Just to be clear, are you saying that his claim > Telegram uses the MTProto 2.0 Cloud algorithm for non-secret chats[1][2]. > In fact, it uses a split-key encryption system and the servers are all stored in multiple jurisdictions. So even Telegram employees can't decrypt the chats, because you'd need to compromise all the servers at the same time. is false? If so can you cite a source? (The claim is just a summary of…

Yes. An employee can impersonate a user by registering a device in their name and intercepting the confirmation code and then read all non secret chats and private groups of that user.

At least one employee must have the ability to intercept the code.

(Unless the user has 2fa enabled, but that is not the default configuration.)

There are probably easier ways if we knew more about how the administrate their infrastructure.

Re: Thoughts on the Durov Arrest

#93

Post by pelorat »

ashellunts wrote: post #81
pjerem wrote: post #12

> What it means is that European states are going to try to extraterritorially dictate to foreign companies what content those companies can and cannot host on foreign-based webservers It looks like the author failed to grab that Durov asked for the French nationality and therefore is a French citizen who must comply to French law. > Telegram is not the only company in the world which has a social media platform used…

From telegram privacy policy: >If Telegram receives a court order that confirms you're a terror suspect, we may disclose your IP address and phone number to the relevant authorities. So far, this has never happened. When it does, we will include it in a semiannual transparency report published at: https://t.me/transparency .

What about "child trafficking suspect", "arms dealer suspect" or "drug dealer suspect" ?

Re: Thoughts on the Durov Arrest

#94

Post by surfingdino »

pjerem wrote: post #12

> What it means is that European states are going to try to extraterritorially dictate to foreign companies what content those companies can and cannot host on foreign-based webservers It looks like the author failed to grab that Durov asked for the French nationality and therefore is a French citizen who must comply to French law. > Telegram is not the only company in the world which has a social media platform used…

Telegram in the primary communication platform for the Russian forces in Ukraine. That may or may not be of interest to the French authorities, but the fact that it is also used by the Russian mercenaries taking control over former French colonies definitely is. A French citizen aiding Russian military and mercenaries in the French sphere of interest is asking for trouble.

This is pure conjecture, btw.

Re: Thoughts on the Durov Arrest

#95

Post by lispm »

akira2501 wrote: post #70
cedws wrote: post #6

The speculation on this situation is crazy. People are losing their minds over the idea of Durov being arrested over crimes committed on his platform, but we don’t even know the details. For all we know he could have been completely complicit. Hold your horses people.

> the idea of Durov being arrested I don't know him but the idea that an individual CEO would be handled in this way seems extreme and calls into question the actual motives of the French government. > For all we know he could have been completely complicit. I guess he could be an international terrorist drug dealing pimp. > Hold your horses people. The French governments actions and communication on the subject has…

> that an individual CEO would be handled in this way seems extreme

I would hope that it is pretty normal, that a CEO can be treated exactly that way.

Re: Thoughts on the Durov Arrest

#96

Post by pelorat »

pjerem wrote: post #12

> What it means is that European states are going to try to extraterritorially dictate to foreign companies what content those companies can and cannot host on foreign-based webservers It looks like the author failed to grab that Durov asked for the French nationality and therefore is a French citizen who must comply to French law. > Telegram is not the only company in the world which has a social media platform used…

> Also the author fails to understand that the complicity here doesn’t mean that companies in Europe are responsible for their users content

In the EU, every company is responsible for what their users post on their service. There's a reason you won't find any (or very few) comment sections on the website of EU media and news companies. No one wanted to pay for the moderators needed, so when the law came around most comment sections were shuttered.

Re: Thoughts on the Durov Arrest

#98

Post by jiiam »

mr_mitm wrote: post #92
jiiam wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to be clear, are you saying that his claim > Telegram uses the MTProto 2.0 Cloud algorithm for non-secret chats[1][2]. > In fact, it uses a split-key encryption system and the servers are all stored in multiple jurisdictions. So even Telegram employees can't decrypt the chats, because you'd need to compromise all the servers at the same time. is false? If so can you cite a source? (The claim is just a summary of…

Yes. An employee can impersonate a user by registering a device in their name and intercepting the confirmation code and then read all non secret chats and private groups of that user. At least one employee must have the ability to intercept the code. (Unless the user has 2fa enabled, but that is not the default configuration.) There are probably easier ways if we knew more about how the administrate their infrastruc…

Maybe? When you login from a new device you're asked to provide an OTP so maybe there is at least that layer of protection and, hopefully, requires some circumvention at the application code level.

However I think the real question is: even if that's possible, can law enforcement compel Durov or an employee to do so?

Re: Thoughts on the Durov Arrest

#99

Post by sofixa »

cja wrote: post #78
sofixa wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see this argument a lot, but it falls apart when you realise Ukraine also extensively uses Telegram. Maybe not for official state business (Zelenskyy chatting with his intelligence chief), but many times officials communicate with civilians via Telegram channels.

Your second sentence contradicts your first

It doesn't. Public service announcements are extremely critical for a nation at war.

Re: Thoughts on the Durov Arrest

#100

Post by fvdessen »

jcranmer wrote: post #17

The fundamental problem we have right know is that we know the charges, but not the factual allegations that underlie those charges. Put differently, if you wanted to put together a charge list for the head of a large social media company you didn't like, this is what it would look like. If you wanted to put together a charge list for someone actively running the group chat of a terrorist group... this is what it wou…

I just opened telegram, went to ‘find people nearby’ and was immediately presented with a long list of drug dealers and prostitutes advertising their services. I’m pretty sure that’s not legal
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