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The End of Finale

finalemusic.com

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Re: The End of Finale

#91

Post by pfranz »

dahart wrote: post #22
pclmulqdq wrote: post #10

I switched from Finale to Dorico about a year ago. It was like night and day in terms of user-friendliness. Finale felt heavily loaded down with legacy garbage. On Windows, it (really the Aria player) insisted on complete ownership of my audio output, too, which was a real pain.

> Finale felt heavily loaded down with legacy garbage It seems like the letter fully confirms & validates your feeling. ;) There’s just no GUI software started 35 years ago that’s still alive and feels modern and unbloated. Okay, there might be something, but I want to see the examples that prove me wrong. Things that come to mind are like Photoshop or Word, both bloated with legacy and might be dying to web apps. Or…

I think part of the reason apps like Photoshop and Word got bloated is that their audience got watered down and are fairly mainstream software.

I'm sure there's a lot of old niche software that feels modern and unbloated. Nuke[1] is 31 years old and Houdini[2] is 27. Maya[3] is 26 years old. I would say Maya feels bloated--but at larger places I've worked, people have avoided the newer viewports with more features because the "legacy" viewports are so fast.

It may be hard to make it feel "modern," but I love how optimized "old" code can be if they've been able to resist rewriting it.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuke_(software)

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houdini_(software)

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autodesk_Maya

Re: The End of Finale

#92

Post by dahart »

gspencley wrote: post #88
dahart wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s with the outrage? Do you own a Finale license? I’m sorry if you do, this does suck for people who still want to use Finale, but “stealing back” seems like hyperbole. The product (along with their income stream related to it) is shutting down permanently. It died, and no amount of commentary is going to bring it back. Assuming you have a vested interest in the outcome here, what do you actually want to have hap…

I don't have a proverbial dog in this race but I agree with the outrage and I don't think "stealing back" is at all hyperbolic. I guess if you're really really really young and all you know is subscription based software, then that is the world you know and you might just be accustomed to it and accept it. But if Finale has been around for 35 years, then it existed long before "cloud" and long before subscription sof…

Users who’ve paid for it can continue to use it indefinitely, albeit with no support after 1 year from now. The fridge analogy is wrong. MakeMusic is not going to remove the software from your computer.

> it’s not a major expense (also happens to be a fixed cost)

That’s unlikely to be true, and not anyone’s decision but MakeMusic’s. What if they don’t have the money? It’s not reasonable for me to ask you to pay me $10 on the grounds that it’s not a major expense and is a fixed cost, right?

Re: The End of Finale

#93

Post by vunderba »

dahart wrote: post #59
wvenable wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It could be way worse So they chopped off your finger, it could be worse they could have taken the whole hand! The right thing to do is release a version that doesn't require authorization at all.

The existing authorized versions will continue to work forever. What more do you want from a product that ceases to exist? It’s going to EOL no matter what very quickly as OSes get incompatible upgrades. If you’re still using Finale a year from now hoping that it’s somehow going to continue, you’re only tricking yourself.

With all the negative replies to your post, it's rather unbelievable to me that you can't figure out why.

Number 1: this is not a cloud-based product, it works entirely off-line, so saying that the product ceases to exist is also wrong, I and many others archive the installers to re-install them on new computers.

Number 2: Microsoft prides itself on backwards compatibility, and it is very common to run software that is decades-old on new versions of windows.

Number 3: It will not be possible to authorize Finale on any new devices, or reauthorize Finale. This is the point that is angering people. I paid for a very specific version of Finale, and it's obvious that I should continue to expect to be able to use it barring OS related incompatibility. The only reason the software won't work anymore is because they're deliberately locking my authorization key.

The correct move from the company is to either leave the server that authorizes keys on, or if that's somehow magically too much trouble, then they need to patch older versions of finale to not check for the key.

Source: Have been using Finale for decades

Re: The End of Finale

#94

Post by [deleted] »

dahart wrote: post #60
lozenge wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The customers paid for a lifetime license, why is a year reasonable to revoke this with no compensation?

The license to use existing installs is not being revoked, customers can continue to use Finale on their computer. How do you know they’re not offering compensation to people who purchased recently? What compensation do you expect, and under what circumstances? (* edit to add link to the refund offer: https://makemusic.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/258438881308... ) Like I said, I’m comparing the extra year to situat…

[deleted]

Re: The End of Finale

#95

Post by pfranz »

dahart wrote: post #90
Clamchop wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really like "bloated" as a descriptor, because it's so unspecific that it's hard to argue against. Does it mean the software is slow? Too cluttered and disorganized? Too feature-heavy? Compromised by backward compatibility? In any case, Photoshop, Word, and Windows are not in Finale's position clearly, as they're still far and away leading their respective markets. So, whatever bloat they may have, it's not y…

That’s fair, ‘bloated’ is very vague. And TBH I have multiple stories of devs complaining about bloat in order to justify a complete rewrite that turned out to be multi-million-dollar mistakes. OTOH, I’ve been developing software long enough that you see the same pattern over and over. All application software is fresh and fast at first, and then gets bloated over time, where bloated means it accrues technical debt a…

> MacOS got a total ground-up rewrite in between versions 9 and 10, and it helps they built the UI on top of an existing nix.

The reason the parent mentioned NeXTSTEP is while MacOS between 9 and X is a ground-up rewrite if you compare those two, Mac OS X was an evolution of the NeXTSTEP codebase from 1989 (34 years ago).

> I went to the Maya developer’s conference around maybe 2002 and the devs were complaining about it being hard to maintain.

I'm not surprised. I'm a bit fuzzy on the pre-history of Maya, but I believe it incorporated software acquired from Alias, Wavefront, and TDI. However, I think part of the performance and bugginess might be from launching on expensive IRIX-based systems and transitioning to commodity hardware an Linux in the early 2000s.

Re: The End of Finale

#96

Post by vunderba »

dahart wrote: post #92
gspencley wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have a proverbial dog in this race but I agree with the outrage and I don't think "stealing back" is at all hyperbolic. I guess if you're really really really young and all you know is subscription based software, then that is the world you know and you might just be accustomed to it and accept it. But if Finale has been around for 35 years, then it existed long before "cloud" and long before subscription sof…

Users who’ve paid for it can continue to use it indefinitely, albeit with no support after 1 year from now. The fridge analogy is wrong. MakeMusic is not going to remove the software from your computer. > it’s not a major expense (also happens to be a fixed cost) That’s unlikely to be true, and not anyone’s decision but MakeMusic’s. What if they don’t have the money? It’s not reasonable for me to ask you to pay me $1…

Users who’ve paid for it can continue to use it indefinitely, albeit with no support after 1 year from now

FALSE.

From the announcement, "It will not be possible to authorize Finale on any new devices, or reauthorize Finale".

If I have to reinstall it for any reason, such as my computer dying, or I get a virus, or I upgrade my computer, or any myriad of reasons, I am completely SOL and can no longer "continue to use it indefinitely".

Re: The End of Finale

#97

Post by ta2112 »

Oh no! I'll need to get to work converting all those old Finale files to MusicXML or something. Hopefully they will release a tool for viewing and converting Finale files beyond the 1 year retirement.

Re: The End of Finale

#98

Post by ta2112 »

prvc wrote: post #51
genter wrote: post #2

> It will not be possible to authorize Finale on any new devices, or reauthorize Finale Well that seems like a dick move. > MakeMusic has partnered with Steinberg to offer an exclusive discount on Dorico Pro. So can we assume MakeMusic is getting a kickback for every sale of Dorico? If that's the case, of course they're going to stop you from reinstalling Finale.

They should, at minimum, release a freeware file conversion tool.

Yes! There must be millions of Finale files out there that will otherwise become unreadable.

Re: The End of Finale

#99

Post by jasonjayr »

dahart wrote: post #65
prvc wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The tool would need to output MusicXML. And maybe PDF as a fallback, if they can manage that. Each version of Finale uses its own complex, proprietary, and opaque file format. With no way to activate new installations of the software, the content of these files will become harder to access as time progresses. They should do more to allow the software to continue to be activated, as well.

> The tool would need to output MusicXML. Finale does export MusicXML already. And PDF. https://makemusic.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/258438881308... > They should do more to allow the software to continue to be activated, as well. Why? BTW, it can continue to be activated for a year, and existing activations will continue to work after that, as long as the OS remains compatible. What else do you think they should…

Windows 11 has compatibility with 30 year old software. And will be able to be emulated far into the future.

If you are ending a product that users were using to make creative works, then preventing that product from working into the future is robbing the future of the ability to look back at these files.

Imagine a case where 5 years from now you find your backups with files from Finale. You won't be able to read them unless you have an active activated installation. Even if you had the installer backed up so you could re-install, it won't work.

The right thing to do, would be to enable the users to keep running this software, if they have the means + the rights, not activly prevent it from working. Especially if the only thing between a user and using their licensed software, is a license check.

Honestly, it's probably moot anyway: the pirate scene will almost certanly have the activation check patched out in no time.

Re: The End of Finale

#100

Post by dahart »

vunderba wrote: post #93
dahart wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The existing authorized versions will continue to work forever. What more do you want from a product that ceases to exist? It’s going to EOL no matter what very quickly as OSes get incompatible upgrades. If you’re still using Finale a year from now hoping that it’s somehow going to continue, you’re only tricking yourself.

With all the negative replies to your post, it's rather unbelievable to me that you can't figure out why. Number 1: this is not a cloud-based product, it works entirely off-line, so saying that the product ceases to exist is also wrong, I and many others archive the installers to re-install them on new computers. Number 2: Microsoft prides itself on backwards compatibility, and it is very common to run software that…

This does suck. I truly, honestly feel bad for you and other Finale users.

I might indeed be wrong (about what I’m not exactly sure yet despite your comment), but I think you maybe misunderstood my comment a little bit. I didn’t say the software will cease to exist, but the product actually went on life support yesterday and will cease to exist in a year. You can’t buy it, and support ends in 1 year. After that it no longer exists as a product. That’s not my opinion, it’s what the letter says.

It’s understandable to be upset about the new authorization cutoff. That might not be MakeMusic’s decision, it might be Steinberg’s. The move to Dorico and the discount on offer might be valuable and viable for a lot of people, but I have no doubt that it probably doesn’t work for everyone, and in that case the authorization shut-off hurts more.

But, new authorization isn’t going to help much beyond a year anyway, right? With the product dying, if you haven’t moved to something else by then, it’s just playing Russian Roulette. I’ve watched loads of Windows software become incompatible, software much younger than Finale, despite your point #2. I tried installing audio drivers for my Edirol audio interface just yesterday, and it no longer works. It sucks when software products you depend on go away, but unfortunately, people sometimes run out of money.

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