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Pie doesn't need to be original unless you claim it so

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Re: Pie doesn't need to be original unless you claim it so

#91

Post by shprd »

layer8 wrote: post #90
shprd wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know about you but I'm speaking from experience, not hypothetically. I shared multiple open source side projects where I made something for myself then shared it with the world. > Typically they expect to get something out of it that they don’t get by their project just sitting on GitHub. Can you expand? the vast majority of open source projects don't make a dime. I don't see the ulterior motive you're talkin…

What motivated you to share them? What outcome did you expect? I’m not talking about revenue. I’m talking about the fact that sharing their creation usually comes with expectations of some (at least psychological) benefit for the sharer. For example, some people want to receive praise for the project. Or they may want to attract collaborators. Still others actually do seek criticism in order to potentially improve th…

But there was nothing demanded that the users needed to do. Just "Hey I made this cool thing and it does XYZ." That was my point. If the word 'expectations' entails things like one feeling good about making a small difference in the world then I meant something else and that was a poor choice of words on my part.

Re: Pie doesn't need to be original unless you claim it so

#93

Post by dartos »

sqeaky wrote: post #69
jp57 wrote: post #22

As others have mentioned, a pie is consumable, and thus a good one has value even if it isn't original. But a slight change to the original scenario makes asking about originality much more reasonable: Imagine you write a peach pie recipe over the weekend, and you give a copy of the recipe to your friend. They respond: "Wait, how is this different from every other peach pie recipe that's ever been written? It seems r…

Brilliant inversion. Because software can be used without consuming it we presume there is some utility in new software distinct from prior software otherwise it would come with information explaining it was purely a "creative act" as the article puts it. I wouldn't create a new office suite for the joy of creation then offer it along side ms word or google docs. I might make one then put it in a portfolio as a showc…

That’s a big reason why software companies can be so profitable.

Almost no material cost.

Re: Pie doesn't need to be original unless you claim it so

#94

Post by jp57 »

hnlmorg wrote: post #84
albedoa wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If only it were that simple. There are constantly cases bought to court about similarities in one persons work to another artists. Then you have other issues around what constitutes a derivative work. And so many original songs sample other artists songs and pay them royalties, that's not a cover either. It's increasingly difficult to accept that you are replying to jp57 in good faith. They are not talking about th…

I am replying in good faith. My point is that the whole concept of originality is a blurry mess and hugely subjective. To demonstrate that point, I was giving other examples of copying in music. Let’s remember that it was me who introduced the analogy of a cover when the OP examples how bands might pride themselves on originality. I’m giving examples that his statement is false as often as it is true. Maybe I’m misun…

Well, I'm in my 50s, I thought it was the kids who expected their friends to be uncritically accepting.

This whole subthread spawned from one sentence where I asserted that I found it valuable when my friends would tell me if they thought my songs sounded too much like something else (and that they expected the same from me), as an illustration that there are contexts in which asking about originality is something that would be reasonable for a friend to do. Nothing you've said so far seems intended to refute any of that.

I stand by the notion that the definition of "cover" and "original" song are not especially ambiguous, even though music appreciation is subjective and there are edge cases where reasonable people may disagree about whether two songs are "too similar" to be considered distinct songs.

Re: Pie doesn't need to be original unless you claim it so

#95

Post by hnlmorg »

jp57 wrote: post #94
hnlmorg wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am replying in good faith. My point is that the whole concept of originality is a blurry mess and hugely subjective. To demonstrate that point, I was giving other examples of copying in music. Let’s remember that it was me who introduced the analogy of a cover when the OP examples how bands might pride themselves on originality. I’m giving examples that his statement is false as often as it is true. Maybe I’m misun…

Well, I'm in my 50s, I thought it was the kids who expected their friends to be uncritically accepting. This whole subthread spawned from one sentence where I asserted that I found it valuable when my friends would tell me if they thought my songs sounded too much like something else (and that they expected the same from me), as an illustration that there are contexts in which asking about originality is something th…

I wasn’t claiming people get confused about covers. But to be honest, I think we’ve both been missing each others point.

For the sake of keeping things on topic, and also because I’m about to crack open a bottle of whisky, I’ll just leave the following comment:

Your point about constructive feedback is an empowering one. And while I’m not sure I’ve understood the nuances of everything you’ve posted, I do 100% agree with your sentiment regarding constructive feedback.

Re: Pie doesn't need to be original unless you claim it so

#96

Post by Spivak »

jp57 wrote: post #53
015a wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the better metaphor is: Imagine you make a chair over the weekend. You already have many chairs. Chairs are readily and cheaply available. Your design is likely derivative of many other chairs. Being told any of these things by a friend you show the chair to is entirely pointless and maybe even mean. The only angle that has some level of social acceptability is an angle like "check out this chair that's like…

I'd say software is more like a pie recipe or a song than like a pie or a chair.

And yet we're paid to write derivative songs all day which is why I don't think the analogy fits.

If I write yet another rails app that does nothing to push the industry forward and isn't novel (to a computer scientist) it nonetheless provides business value. And since it isn't consumed on use it's clear that we're talking about a bespoke durable good — a chair, a shelf, a thing that is useful without it being novel.

Software might be made of words but that doesn't make it a recipe or a song.

Re: Pie doesn't need to be original unless you claim it so

#97

Post by aidenn0 »

Spivak wrote: post #96
jp57 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say software is more like a pie recipe or a song than like a pie or a chair.

And yet we're paid to write derivative songs all day which is why I don't think the analogy fits. If I write yet another rails app that does nothing to push the industry forward and isn't novel (to a computer scientist) it nonetheless provides business value. And since it isn't consumed on use it's clear that we're talking about a bespoke durable good — a chair, a shelf, a thing that is useful without it being novel.…

But in this case, the bespoke rails app does do something that other ones do not, in the sense of it works with a specific database with specific operations.

To stretch the analogy, "this chair fits people who are 180.3cm tall better than any previous chair"

Re: Pie doesn't need to be original unless you claim it so

#98

Post by quesera »

kbelder wrote: post #66
thro2309 wrote: post #29

> The friend has assumed that your goal is to "efficiently" reach the goal of a delicious pie, or perhaps even to create a new kind of pie. But that's not the goal at all! > Baking a pie is a creative act. It's personal, it's inherently delightful, it's an act of caring for others. It's also a craft that one can improve at over time. Just buying the "best" pie would defeat the point. Not sure author realises the iron…

My brother sat with my mother one day, meticulously recording every detail he could while she made a pie crust, filled it, and baked it. All the quantities, how they were combined, temperatures, durations, etc. He still cannot replicate her pies.

GP is pointlessly provocative, although an argument might be made that industrial pie production is neither art nor craft.

Your mom's case is different and much more interesting. She must make truly transcendent pies.

My half-dozen forays into making "from scratch" pie crust and filling have been surprisingly successful, but I might be missing something. I followed recipes from either Mark Bittman or America's Test Kitchen.

Re: Pie doesn't need to be original unless you claim it so

#99

Post by ReptileMan »

Except it is not a pie but a shovel. So the question how does it differs from ShovelMaster 3000 that is used on all other construction sites is not unreasonable.

And there can be a lot of good answers - it is lighter, it looks cooler, the grip is more ergonomic, it is made of chinesium and cheap and if you are only building a shed - it will get the job done without using the unholy trinity of docker, ansible and terraform, and it will be in your hands in 5 min and not require overnight delivery by amazon.

And you can see this here on hnews - when someone shows us something that is entertaining, no asks how it differs from Heroes 3 or Quake. But we do for the next cloud synced postman clone that is on it's way to becoming as worse as Postman when they get the VC money.

Re: Pie doesn't need to be original unless you claim it so

#100

Post by ok_dad »

jp57 wrote: post #22

As others have mentioned, a pie is consumable, and thus a good one has value even if it isn't original. But a slight change to the original scenario makes asking about originality much more reasonable: Imagine you write a peach pie recipe over the weekend, and you give a copy of the recipe to your friend. They respond: "Wait, how is this different from every other peach pie recipe that's ever been written? It seems r…

When I see two things that appear the same, but were developed or created by two different people and/or methods, I inspect each closely to see where the differences lie. Usually, there are some good lessons to learn from each new pie I consume!
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