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Australian government approves AAPowerLink project to export solar to Singapore

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Re: Australian government approves AAPowerLink project to export solar to Singapore

#91

Post by audunw »

nroets wrote: post #64
hunglee2 wrote: post #7

Australia is going to have make it Rd2 of being an energy commodity superpower. 40 years of exporting coal to China, it can look forward to 1000's years of export solar to APAC.

Technology is progressing so fast that something like space based solar or fusion power will replace terrestrial solar within 100 years.

Space based solar might not take a form where we just put mirrors in space to boost the output of existing terrestrial solar cells. The benefit is that the receivers on the ground can receive energy directly from the sun when the sun is up, and the space mirrors can be used to provide light to areas that are completely dark in winter.

I don’t think microwave beaming is ever viable

Most fusion concepts are thermal power plants. Those have inherent downsides that have nothing to do with the nuclear energy providing the heat for the steam turbines. So they will never fully replace renewables. Helion’s concept might work. But that remains to be seen.

Re: Australian government approves AAPowerLink project to export solar to Singapore

#92

Post by eru »

gizajob wrote: post #51
leoedin wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah - from a purely technical point of view it seems strange that you'd run a power cable 2000 miles to Singapore to service 4 million people, running alongside the coast of Bali, Java and Sumatra - population 210 million. Presumably those in Singapore have a lot more buying power though. And the politics are more favourable for big capital investment projects.

Yeah, they also have zero room left so I guess the option was between more dirty power stations in Malaysia or this. Seems like a wise, forward-looking initiative.

Singapore has plenty of room left, and we are making more via land reclamation. The question is just one of opportunity costs: what else could you do with the land?

Re: Australian government approves AAPowerLink project to export solar to Singapore

#93

Post by eru »

richrichie wrote: post #17
Djdjur7373bb wrote: post #5

Does it actually make economic sense to run a cable large enough for that kind of power from Australia to Singapore? I would have guessed there must be enough domestic customers or in Indonesia that would make more sense.

Singapore with a native population of about 4 million has reserves of about $1 trillion. They can afford to splurge to claim green/net-zero status. Shopping calculations for them need not be about economic cost benefit analysis.

> Shopping calculations for them need not be about economic cost benefit analysis.

But there's also no good reason not to apply cost/benefit analysis.

> Singapore with a native population of about 4 million has reserves of about $1 trillion. They can afford to splurge to claim green/net-zero status.

Of all numbers to bring up here, why did you pick foreign exchange reserves? GDP or wealth might be more relevant?

Re: Australian government approves AAPowerLink project to export solar to Singapore

#94

Post by eru »

ggm wrote: post #16
dyauspitr wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Edge of its exclusive zone is still 200 miles away from its coastline. That’s no joke though it only about 10% of the way to Singapore.

Realistically the first big sell is Indonesia. No cable to Singapore will make sense but it transits Indonesian waters and you would think a willing buyer and seller is there. Shorter path so less transmission losses.

It's a trade-off between the capital expense and transmission losses of a longer cable, and having to deal with Indonesia more than absolutely necessary.

Re: Australian government approves AAPowerLink project to export solar to Singapore

#95

Post by Aachen »

grecy wrote: post #77
hunglee2 wrote: post #7

Australia is going to have make it Rd2 of being an energy commodity superpower. 40 years of exporting coal to China, it can look forward to 1000's years of export solar to APAC.

All while Australian's themselves pay astronomical prices for power

Surely solar panels are affordable with typical Australian household incomes? And much more effective even in southern Tasmania at 45°S as compared to southern Finland at 60°N (where they're apparently cost-effective since they're building solar farms).

If they feel their electricity provider is screwing with them, why not make their own? Probably even with batteries it would pay for itself given the ROI I'd guess panels have there

Re: Australian government approves AAPowerLink project to export solar to Singapore

#96

Post by bigiain »

gonzo41 wrote: post #19
rv3392 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm unsure about Indonesia, but domestic customers in that region would be pretty limited. The closest major power users would be in Queensland (>1000km) away.

Data Centers, Green Steel production. Power == Opportunities. This is such a massive win for the environment.

I did a little back of the envelope calculation in a discussion here last week:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41220499

If Australia refined _all_ of the 40,000kt of Bauxite we export each year into "frozen electricity" Aluminium, that'd only require about 600GWh, or about 4% of the 1.7GW 24x7, or 15,000GWh per year this would send to Singapore.

Large datacenter are in the 100MW sort of range, so only single digit GWh per year.

Australia generates a few hundred TWh per year. 272 TWh in 2021/22 - or 272,000GWh, around 20 times what this project will export to Singapore.

Data centers and Aluminium and Iron smelters are big electricity consumers. But they barely even move the needle compared to cities with millions of households.

Re: Australian government approves AAPowerLink project to export solar to Singapore

#97

Post by eru »

andrewstuart wrote: post #76

I'd probably prefer to get cheaper power here in Australia, but whatever - no decisions are ever made here to benefit the Australian people - it's always to help some vested interest or corporate interest or foreign interest or donor to the politicians. So presumably this whole bit of climate theater has a lovely feel good story.

As far as Australia is concerned, this is a private investment project.

And it does not prevent any other private investment projects to generate and sell green electricity to Australians. Australia isn't exactly short of sunshine, and the Chinese will happily sell you all the solar panels that you could ever want.

Re: Australian government approves AAPowerLink project to export solar to Singapore

#98

Post by bigiain »

christophilus wrote: post #44
Djdjur7373bb wrote: post #5

Does it actually make economic sense to run a cable large enough for that kind of power from Australia to Singapore? I would have guessed there must be enough domestic customers or in Indonesia that would make more sense.

My very first thought was: that cable gets snipped in wartime. Not a big deal, if your grid can handle the loss, but this certainly can’t be the gameplan for the bulk of your power.

I recall reading Singapores energy rules say this cable can't supply more then 15% of Singapore's requirements, presumably to protect against that.

Re: Australian government approves AAPowerLink project to export solar to Singapore

#99

Post by closewith »

audunw wrote: post #91
nroets wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Technology is progressing so fast that something like space based solar or fusion power will replace terrestrial solar within 100 years.

Space based solar might not take a form where we just put mirrors in space to boost the output of existing terrestrial solar cells. The benefit is that the receivers on the ground can receive energy directly from the sun when the sun is up, and the space mirrors can be used to provide light to areas that are completely dark in winter. I don’t think microwave beaming is ever viable Most fusion concepts are thermal pow…

What would those downsides be?

Re: Australian government approves AAPowerLink project to export solar to Singapore

#100

Post by DavidPiper »

Hell yeah! So cool to see Sun Cable progressing.

Australia is obscenely well-positioned to be a solar energy powerhouse. So much open and uninhabited land, geologically stable and uniquely suited climate with a ton of sun all year round.

Could have done it sooner with more political will, etc, etc. But I'm so over the whole renewables and climate change debate (still very much alive here sadly). We're way beyond the time for talking and into the time for action, and seeing this project pull us into a more sustainable world is awesome.

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