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How did divers manage to blow up the Nord Stream pipeline?

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Re: How did divers manage to blow up the Nord Stream pipeline?

#91

Post by nradov »

jacknews wrote: post #84
blackeyeblitzar wrote: post #10

[flagged]

Yes the OP article and this whole argument seems like whitewash to me - a ragtag team of Ukrainian divers on a vacation charter yatch that doesn't even have sonar... planting 4 large explosives precicesly, at 80m depths? nope Any criminology surely starts with motive, and then means and opportunity. Who had a motive to destroy these pipelines? Who had the means? Could it be America, who would cut off Russia as a supp…

Just because the charter yacht didn't come equipped with sonar doesn't mean that the dive team didn't have sonar. You can literally rent a complete side-scan sonar system in a box and carry it onboard with you. Some of my friends do this hunting for lost shipwrecks to dive.

Re: How did divers manage to blow up the Nord Stream pipeline?

#92

Post by kazinator »

> Yet this could be precisely why the saboteurs used [Andromeda].

Or it could be precisely why that boat was not used for anything of the sort.

This kind of argumentation reminds me of, "only a guilty man would protest that much against the charge laid against him".

Re: How did divers manage to blow up the Nord Stream pipeline?

#93

Post by dgrr19 »

stefan_ wrote: post #81
dgrr19 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> not transporting any gas and hadn't for a while yeah, "a while" = 1 month. https://edition.cnn.com/2022/08/31/business/nord-stream-1-eu... "the most basic" aka cnn

What's the theory here? Traders were expecting the pipeline that had been dead for a month to come back to life, so when it exploded in dramatic fashion, their false hopes were dashed and caused a nonexistent surge?

It's not traders who speculate with the prices (which could also be), it's the countries who where buying enough supply for months. Yeah sure, it could trigger a surge in supply in order prevent a shortage.

Re: How did divers manage to blow up the Nord Stream pipeline?

#94

Post by CRConrad »

anovikov wrote: post #68
voytec wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is that you don't need gas specifically, but energy. Find ways to get energy without dependency on gas if the source is unstable.

That's true. We should depend less on things that are so vulnerable. LNG is partially a solution though - a liquefaction or regasification terminal is easier to protect, and defence of shipping at sea is a well-debugged thing since WWI.

> defence of shipping at sea is a well-debugged thing since WWI.

When (presumably) the Royal Navy was in charge of it. Since WW2 it's been the US one that's handled it, but... Some pundits *cough*PeterZeihan*cough* have been saying for a while now that America is withdrawing from the role of World Police.

Re: How did divers manage to blow up the Nord Stream pipeline?

#95

Post by CRConrad »

fredgrott wrote: post #15

Given the recent reporting of a real collision of a ship with an undersea pipeline from Finland to Estonia...this seems not likely.... What is missing....there was several entities tracking one distinct Russian ship big enough to cause such damage before and after the even occurred...then several years later...nothing about that specific ship....

> Given the recent reporting of a real collision of a ship with an undersea pipeline from Finland to Estonia...

Your use of the word "collision" makes it sound so... Accidental.

That was, IIRC, a Chinese ship, which:

1) Dragged its anchor[1] along the bottom of the sea for God knows how many miles, out in the middle of the Gulf of Finland, before they "just happened" to snag it on that telecommunications cable (IIRC; not a pipeline).

2) Then legged it across the Baltic and out through Öresund without responding to attempts at communication, and then home to China where authorities are denying Western investigators any access to the ship's crew.

Doesn't feel very accidental at all to me.

Buut... I don't see how it supports the hypothesis that it was the Russians who blew up NordStream 2. What's the logical connection?

___

[1]: Or some specialised implement designed to do the maximal amount of damage, but make it look like it was by an anchor?

Re: How did divers manage to blow up the Nord Stream pipeline?

#96

Post by CRConrad »

lyu07282 wrote: post #24
selivanovp wrote: post #7

[flagged]

I don't get it, if it's anyway made up charges why not make them up against Russia? Just because it's more plausible that Ukraine did it?

Well yeah, if you were selling a bullshit story, wouldn't "it's more plausible" be a pretty good reason to go with one version over another? I mean, that feels obvious enough that I don't quite get why you're even asking.

Re: How did divers manage to blow up the Nord Stream pipeline?

#97

Post by [deleted] »

nradov wrote: post #91
jacknews wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes the OP article and this whole argument seems like whitewash to me - a ragtag team of Ukrainian divers on a vacation charter yatch that doesn't even have sonar... planting 4 large explosives precicesly, at 80m depths? nope Any criminology surely starts with motive, and then means and opportunity. Who had a motive to destroy these pipelines? Who had the means? Could it be America, who would cut off Russia as a supp…

Just because the charter yacht didn't come equipped with sonar doesn't mean that the dive team didn't have sonar. You can literally rent a complete side-scan sonar system in a box and carry it onboard with you. Some of my friends do this hunting for lost shipwrecks to dive.

[deleted]

Re: How did divers manage to blow up the Nord Stream pipeline?

#98

Post by jacknews »

nradov wrote: post #91
jacknews wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes the OP article and this whole argument seems like whitewash to me - a ragtag team of Ukrainian divers on a vacation charter yatch that doesn't even have sonar... planting 4 large explosives precicesly, at 80m depths? nope Any criminology surely starts with motive, and then means and opportunity. Who had a motive to destroy these pipelines? Who had the means? Could it be America, who would cut off Russia as a supp…

Just because the charter yacht didn't come equipped with sonar doesn't mean that the dive team didn't have sonar. You can literally rent a complete side-scan sonar system in a box and carry it onboard with you. Some of my friends do this hunting for lost shipwrecks to dive.

yes, coulda. But why not just rent a boat with sonar, in good shape, with safe dive platform, etc.

Only one culprit ticks all the boxes from a crimonology pov, and none of the others really make much sense.

Why, really, would Ukraine destroy the pipeline (not exactly the best way to make friends in Europe), and honestly, could they even? They were busy with much closer-to-home issues.

Why would Russia destroy it? They were already in complete control, and the sabotage lost their ability to re-open supplies and therefore any negotiation leverage.

Germany? Hardly.

It's America. Who also crowed the loudest pointing the finger at Russia, at the time. Only America has such blatant chutzpah.

Re: How did divers manage to blow up the Nord Stream pipeline?

#99

Post by matthewdgreen »

anovikov wrote: post #36
matthewdgreen wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m enthusiastic about the wind plants were building off the East Coast, but I also worry that they have single points of failure where the power cables come in from the ocean. These could even be severed accidentally. I hope they’ve considered adding some redundancy to these links. There’s even a plan to build offshore power distribution networks up and down the whole East Coast which would potentially help (or hurt…

Throughput of those cables isn't so huge. It takes an attack of enormous scale which will be impossible to hide or misattribute to cause significant power shortage over a wide area this way.

Well, these wind projects can be close to 1GW and they come onshore at one place. So that seems like it could be very disruptive. What am I missing?
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