Creativity fundamentally comes from memorization? • Hacker News Board

Re: Creativity fundamentally comes from memorization?

#91

Post by barrkel » Wed, Jul 31, 2024, 10:34 AM UTC

Sammi wrote: post #77

Llamamoe wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think I can agree, as an extremely creative person with extremely bad memory - to a point where I pretty much never memorize anything , whether intentionally or by accident. What I find instead, is that by just processing novel information, especially if I focus on analysing it, my brain internalizes insights and builds model of that type of thing, allowing me to either imperfectly reconstruct what I've seen,…

"What I find instead, is that by just processing novel information, especially if I focus on analysing it, my brain internalizes insights and builds model of that type of thing" Sorry, but this is memoization.

What do you call it when you remember things so you can repeat them but you can't generalize? E.g. if you learn a poem or phrase in a foreign language, but can't reuse the words in different contexts? Or being able to recite a rule, but not automatically applying it?

Is there a word for this?

Similarly, we should have a word for knowing how to reuse something in a different context, but not recall its origin or its canonical portrayal. Being able to apply a rule, without being able to recite it.

Do you think there's one word which means both of these things, which are opposites, as I've stated them?

Re: Creativity fundamentally comes from memorization?

#92

Post by kqr » Wed, Jul 31, 2024, 10:47 AM UTC

alecco wrote: post #78

kqr wrote: post #60

I was the sort of person who did not believe in memorisation as a solution for anything. Then I tried getting really good at spaced repetition for a year (yes, it is a skill that needs to be trained for good results) and I've completely changed my mind. Spaced repetition allows me to become proficient even in things I don't get the natural opportunity to practise daily, so that when the day comes and I need them, I h…

Anki flash cards?

I use org-drill in Emacs but it's the same idea, yes.

The trick is not so much which software or settings one uses, but writing high-quality prompts.

Re: Creativity fundamentally comes from memorization?

#93

Post by kqr » Wed, Jul 31, 2024, 10:55 AM UTC

Llamamoe wrote: post #67

shw1n wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for reading and the response! One of the points I'm trying to make is that taste and elegance fundamentally stem from an internalized heuristic -- which at it's core is memorization. I understand the connotation of "memorization" evokes an image of blindly memorizing without connecting, but isn't the tastefully developed expertise just memorization of a better heuristic?

I don't think I can agree, as an extremely creative person with extremely bad memory - to a point where I pretty much never memorize anything , whether intentionally or by accident. What I find instead, is that by just processing novel information, especially if I focus on analysing it, my brain internalizes insights and builds model of that type of thing, allowing me to either imperfectly reconstruct what I've seen,…

I would describe myself exactly the same way as you, and I've always been that way (noticed it at first in school where I would take forever to hand in the memorisation half of an exam but finish the analytical half in record time.)

I recommend giving spaced repetition a serious go. It doesn't cost much and you might be surprised how far it takes even someone like you. It completely changed how I view the role of memorisation in analytical work.

Strictly speaking, someone like you does not need to memorise things because you can always derive them from more fundamental principles. But being able to do that, while a blessing, is also a crutch.

Reasoning from first principles every time is slow compared to pulling out the right relationship for the problem at hand right away.

Re: Creativity fundamentally comes from memorization?

#94

Post by bryanrasmussen » Wed, Jul 31, 2024, 10:58 AM UTC

shw1n wrote: post #15

tikhonj wrote: post #11

"a flash of inspiration connecting internalized concepts" Well, okay, but rote memorization is neither necessary nor sufficient to internalize concepts. One of the reasons people make fun of the author's approach to creativity is that systematic memorization fundamentally can't teach taste —so the systematic approach reeks of awkward, try-hard, low-brow, tasteless art. More broadly, memorization doesn't help much wit…

Thanks for reading and the response! One of the points I'm trying to make is that taste and elegance fundamentally stem from an internalized heuristic -- which at it's core is memorization. I understand the connotation of "memorization" evokes an image of blindly memorizing without connecting, but isn't the tastefully developed expertise just memorization of a better heuristic?

>One of the points I'm trying to make is that taste and elegance fundamentally stem from an internalized heuristic -- which at it's core is memorization.

seems to me there is a relatively big inductive gap there, you believe that there is an internalized heuristic and at its core is memorization, you may even have some evidence that this internalized heuristic has strongly informed your development of taste, but it is pretty difficult to make an argument that is the case for all people.

Aside from that I would say that "internalized heuristic with memorization as the core" puts everything on nurture and no input of nature - which I am pretty much in the camp of combinations of nature and nurture creating the person - of which taste must surely be a big component.

Re: Creativity fundamentally comes from memorization?

#95

Post by passion__desire » Wed, Jul 31, 2024, 11:01 AM UTC

shw1n wrote: post #15

tikhonj wrote: post #11

"a flash of inspiration connecting internalized concepts" Well, okay, but rote memorization is neither necessary nor sufficient to internalize concepts. One of the reasons people make fun of the author's approach to creativity is that systematic memorization fundamentally can't teach taste —so the systematic approach reeks of awkward, try-hard, low-brow, tasteless art. More broadly, memorization doesn't help much wit…

Thanks for reading and the response! One of the points I'm trying to make is that taste and elegance fundamentally stem from an internalized heuristic -- which at it's core is memorization. I understand the connotation of "memorization" evokes an image of blindly memorizing without connecting, but isn't the tastefully developed expertise just memorization of a better heuristic?

Schmidhuber reached your conclusions first.

Driven by Compression Progress: A Simple Principle Explains Essential Aspects of Subjective Beauty, Novelty, Surprise, Interestingness, Attention, Curiosity, Creativity, Art, Science, Music, Jokes

https://arxiv.org/abs/0812.4360

Re: Creativity fundamentally comes from memorization?

#96

Post by kqr » Wed, Jul 31, 2024, 11:03 AM UTC

naasking wrote: post #84

kqr wrote: post #60

I was the sort of person who did not believe in memorisation as a solution for anything. Then I tried getting really good at spaced repetition for a year (yes, it is a skill that needs to be trained for good results) and I've completely changed my mind. Spaced repetition allows me to become proficient even in things I don't get the natural opportunity to practise daily, so that when the day comes and I need them, I h…

You're always memorizing something at some level, even in math where you can derive so much after memorizing some core concepts and deductions.

My argument is that it is worth memorising also the derivations, rather than re-deriving from scratch each time.

Meorising the derivation makes it easier to derive a second-order derivation, and so on. At some level of abstraction, going from first principles becomes prohibitively expensive and caching intermediary results, or so to speak, unlocks that again.

Re: Creativity fundamentally comes from memorization?

#97

Post by bryanrasmussen » Wed, Jul 31, 2024, 11:20 AM UTC

shw1n wrote: post #15

tikhonj wrote: post #11

"a flash of inspiration connecting internalized concepts" Well, okay, but rote memorization is neither necessary nor sufficient to internalize concepts. One of the reasons people make fun of the author's approach to creativity is that systematic memorization fundamentally can't teach taste —so the systematic approach reeks of awkward, try-hard, low-brow, tasteless art. More broadly, memorization doesn't help much wit…

Thanks for reading and the response! One of the points I'm trying to make is that taste and elegance fundamentally stem from an internalized heuristic -- which at it's core is memorization. I understand the connotation of "memorization" evokes an image of blindly memorizing without connecting, but isn't the tastefully developed expertise just memorization of a better heuristic?

also a question - if you have better long term or short term memory how does that affect taste? How does it affect creativity, if all of these things are essentially memorization you would have to assume that people were more creative and had better taste the greater their ability to memorize things, which in the case of taste especially seems slightly absurd.

In the case of creativity it may be easier to make an argument - but surely you can find people who seem more creative with less ability to memorize.

Re: Creativity fundamentally comes from memorization?

#98

Post by naasking » Wed, Jul 31, 2024, 11:55 AM UTC

kqr wrote: post #96

naasking wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're always memorizing something at some level, even in math where you can derive so much after memorizing some core concepts and deductions.

My argument is that it is worth memorising also the derivations, rather than re-deriving from scratch each time. Meorising the derivation makes it easier to derive a second-order derivation, and so on. At some level of abstraction, going from first principles becomes prohibitively expensive and caching intermediary results, or so to speak, unlocks that again.

Sometimes yes, just like jargon is sometimes useful. Why use long-winded terms or descriptions when shorthand works between professionals.

Re: Creativity fundamentally comes from memorization?

#99

Post by miika » Wed, Jul 31, 2024, 12:04 PM UTC

I see it like this: after I have seen some colors and a ball I can then imagine a ball in any of those colors.

In other words, everything I have experienced and memorized becomes this pool of resources I can imagine from. More I have seen, more combinations I can imagine.

Then I understand how traveling actually broadens my view. It’s not just some nice phrase but hard reality.

Also this means maybe anything we can imagine we can also create. Because whatever I can imagine I can also plot a path from here to there, imagine all the steps in-between.

Re: Creativity fundamentally comes from memorization?

#100

Post by Barrin92 » Wed, Jul 31, 2024, 12:04 PM UTC

corimaith wrote: post #72

watwut wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you seen their art and entertainment? I assure you there is whole lot of creativity in there. And it has a whole lot MORE variety then western tend to have.

Their art and entertainment in many cases are rebellions and critiques from mainstream norms. The funny thing is that if you have a rigid conformist society, the rejects are going to double down on the "weird" much more than a well adjusted creative would.

>Their art and entertainment in many cases are rebellions and critiques from mainstream norms

No, that's just the art that Western readers notice because that's the only thing they recognize as art in the first place. Calligraphy (in China traditionally considered the most important form of visual art) for example has an astonishing tradition in East Asia, also notably related to the topic of the thread, memorization and repetition and practice and has very little to do with critiques of norms.