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UBI and the Anti-Work Vibe Shift

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Re: UBI and the Anti-Work Vibe Shift

#91

Post by swed420 »

cladopa wrote: post #13

It seems people forget the most obvious thing: A government powerful enough to give everybody a salary is powerful enough to REMOVE everybody's salary. It is also a monopoly of power. That already happened: In communist Russia if you were not a good communist (you believed communism was a crap system) it meant no salary for you, a shitty status or being sent to prison or forced labor. If your children, or any family…

This comment suggests your views are heavily biased by capital owned/controlled western media.

Here's a different take, with modern China as an example:

https://thenextrecession.wordpress.com/2024/07/24/chinas-thi...

Re: UBI and the Anti-Work Vibe Shift

#92

Post by Timon3 »

_heimdall wrote: post #78
wavemode wrote: post #17

> When we create jobs for a purpose other than the product of the labor, we’re paying people to waste their time unproductively. This is what happens under full-employment policy. This is what happens when we use expansionary monetary policy to boost consumer demand. Does the author (or anyone) have a source that establishes and quantifies this assumption that "we're paying people to waste their time unproductively"?…

I believe it's the bullshit jobs argument. You could point to Twitter though, or really any sizeable corporate layoff that isn't driven by entirely getting rid of departments or products. Sick days, vacation, and parental leave are also good examples at a small scale. It definitely doesn't hold for every jobs, but if a person can be out of the job for days or weeks without a huge impact on the team it may very well b…

> Sick days, vacation, and parental leave are also good examples at a small scale. It definitely doesn't hold for every jobs, but if a person can be out of the job for days or weeks without a huge impact on the team it may very well be a mostly bullshit job.

I don't see how this idea holds up to scrutiny. People who do actual work need time off regularly to keep concentration and motivation up, especially over long periods of time. These factors don't matter for bullshit jobs - who's gonna notice if their output is reduced?

The impact of time off is instead directly related to quality of management. People will need time off for various reasons. You can either work together and plan around this, or you can act like it's not the case and have a) less chance of properly planning, b) greater risk of the full team being affected (e.g. when sick colleagues come into work), and c) less happy workers with higher turnover.

Re: UBI and the Anti-Work Vibe Shift

#93

Post by harimau777 »

_heimdall wrote: post #52
harryf wrote: post #28

From the post... > the key insight that the Noah Smiths of the world seem to be missing is that, in today’s world, we artificially elevate labor demand to keep people employed. To me one learning of COVID and lockdowns is that we're fully capable of meeting all our basic needs with less than 20% of the workforce (which sadly tends also tends to be the lowest paid). In short we don't need everyone to be working for fo…

That may be the crux of it though, people largely don't know what "enough" means. People aren't okay with having shelter, food, water, and community. We want the smartphones, huge TVs, ridiculously expensive cars, access to fly anywhere in the world, etc. We absolutely could have all the basics cover, and then some, with 20% of the work we all put in today but few people want that world.

It feels like people go to far the other way as well. People don't just need shelter, food, water, and community. Things like entertainment, art, and learning are also essential to having a good life.

Re: UBI and the Anti-Work Vibe Shift

#95

Post by [deleted] »

harryf wrote: post #28

From the post... > the key insight that the Noah Smiths of the world seem to be missing is that, in today’s world, we artificially elevate labor demand to keep people employed. To me one learning of COVID and lockdowns is that we're fully capable of meeting all our basic needs with less than 20% of the workforce (which sadly tends also tends to be the lowest paid). In short we don't need everyone to be working for fo…

[deleted]

Re: UBI and the Anti-Work Vibe Shift

#96

Post by sokoloff »

enthulhusiastic wrote: post #70
blfr wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The network effect of mass messaging was tested at smaller scales many times. Victorian era pneumatic tubes come to mind or unlimited local calls later, but there must be countless other examples that did not require changing the economy as a whole .

but is changing the economy as a whole a fair characterization of UBI? That’s a disservice to the existing complexity of modern economies. Valid arguments not downvoted pls

I think the overwhelming majority of transactions can be characterized as a trade (of goods for money, services for money, work for money, money for other money (in form or time), etc.)

UBI seems quite different in that regard and, while it doesn’t invalidate everything, it introduces a lot more of money for nothing and a corresponding nothing for money trade that is required to fund it.

Re: UBI and the Anti-Work Vibe Shift

#97

Post by [deleted] »

jeltz wrote: post #64
simoncion wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem we learned in COVID payouts is that people would rather watch Netflix and smoke weed all day than do any amount of low skilled work at a job they hate. We've uh, we've known this for millennia. "When no longer required to do something that they hate, people will often choose to stop doing that hated thing." is not even a little bit surprising. > ...and have to connect meaning for the employee to the wor…

That's not my experience at all. Most people I know and have worked with care a lot about if their work has meaning. The people who do not are the outliers.

[deleted]

Re: UBI and the Anti-Work Vibe Shift

#98

Post by sokoloff »

_heimdall wrote: post #76
blfr wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a welfare argument, not really relevant to UBI.

Is it not reasonable to consider a UBI as a universal welfare program?

Yes, that’s the seemingly obviously correct way to think about it. Which is also why many people who think the sliver of population who is unable to work should be able to get welfare to avoid starving, but that the vast majority of the population who is capable of productive work should be expected to provide for their own consumption rather than have it be provided to them.

Re: UBI and the Anti-Work Vibe Shift

#99

Post by effingwewt »

_heimdall wrote: post #52
harryf wrote: post #28

From the post... > the key insight that the Noah Smiths of the world seem to be missing is that, in today’s world, we artificially elevate labor demand to keep people employed. To me one learning of COVID and lockdowns is that we're fully capable of meeting all our basic needs with less than 20% of the workforce (which sadly tends also tends to be the lowest paid). In short we don't need everyone to be working for fo…

That may be the crux of it though, people largely don't know what "enough" means. People aren't okay with having shelter, food, water, and community. We want the smartphones, huge TVs, ridiculously expensive cars, access to fly anywhere in the world, etc. We absolutely could have all the basics cover, and then some, with 20% of the work we all put in today but few people want that world.

You forgot about all the people making minimum wage working 40+ hours who can't afford the basics like food and shelter

Because you can cover your necessities with 20% of your income doesn't mean everyone else can.

I know several people on SSI who had to take under the table jobs because their checks wont cover their food and shelter. And that's with food stamps. If they get a regular job they lose their SSI.

Ive got a friend who had to take a part time job dashing after work as a supervisor at my factory.

I think about this stuff when I'm working overtime- how lucky I am to be able to rather than have to find a second job.

I make over 6 figures as an electrician/instrumentation technician. I have a surgery coming up in September that's going to cost me 40k+. Instead of feeling it's so much and all the other things I could use that money for, I try to remind myself I'm blessed to be able to afford it without saving for years. I, again, know people who work full time and don't make that in a year.

Re: UBI and the Anti-Work Vibe Shift

#100

Post by _heimdall »

Timon3 wrote: post #92
_heimdall wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe it's the bullshit jobs argument. You could point to Twitter though, or really any sizeable corporate layoff that isn't driven by entirely getting rid of departments or products. Sick days, vacation, and parental leave are also good examples at a small scale. It definitely doesn't hold for every jobs, but if a person can be out of the job for days or weeks without a huge impact on the team it may very well b…

> Sick days, vacation, and parental leave are also good examples at a small scale. It definitely doesn't hold for every jobs, but if a person can be out of the job for days or weeks without a huge impact on the team it may very well be a mostly bullshit job. I don't see how this idea holds up to scrutiny. People who do actual work need time off regularly to keep concentration and motivation up, especially over long p…

Sure, I wasn't meaning to argue that any person who can be out sick or on leave without hurting the team is in a bullshit job.

I was just pointing to it as a potential indicator, an example of where we may be paying people to waste their time (that was the GP question).

If a team handles leave well due to management that's going to be very clear to the team, it's intentional and takes active work. If a person can be out unexpectedly for a meaningful amount of time and there's no noticeable impact with that role going undone, it may be that it's a bullshit job. It also may not be, people often exagerate how many bullshit jobs there really are.

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