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Every company should be owned by its employees

elysian.press

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Re: Every company should be owned by its employees

#91
post #62
post #55

There are many advantages to having employees own shares in a company. However, I would add that it depends on the industry, type of company and other circumstances. These are factors that play a role and should add to a more nuanced discussion: - Ownership also implies responsibilities and risk. There might be capital risks or surety needed for certain industries. Not all people want this in their lives. - For any c…

What capital risks? Private equity many times purchases a company, loads it up with debt, strips it off assets, pay themselves fat dividends and then walks away when it all falls apart.

A fracking rig costs 900k and many of them sit idle for years at a time:

https://www.csmonitor.com/Environment/2022/0415/Demand-for-o...

You are essentially saying that the roughnecks that work the rig for $30-40 an hour should be owning it. They don't have the capital to own it and pay for the oil rights to use it, or the risk tolerance that it will sit idle and still have to be maintained, stored in a rented warehouse, and guarded when regulation does not allow them to be used. Nor is there any evidence they would be able to successfully run an oil company even if they were given it for free -- compliance issues surrounding commodities deals typically require a different skillset than the guy working the rig.

The vast majority of businesses are not software. Virtually all industry has capital outlay requirements and capital risks equal to or greater to this.

Re: Every company should be owned by its employees

#92
Production, Information Costs, and Economic Organization[1] is classic economics paper that explains how different firms are structured to align incentives, rather then making claims about how every company should be structured.

[1]: https://www.aeaweb.org/aer/top20/62.5.777-795.pdf

Re: Every company should be owned by its employees

#93

>Every year, those employees get a percentage of their salaries in company stock. Ok? Anybody can choose to do this if they work at a public company. But what happen if it's mandatory and the stock goes down? Now your labor was stolen at below market rate! Then we will hear "employees compensation should be resilient to market fluctuations."

People are lazy. You can always sell your grant as you get it, they can’t make holding stock mandatory, but a lot of people (including me) just hold the stock in a really undiversified portfolio.

> You can always sell your grant as you get it, they can’t make holding stock mandatory, [...]

They can. It's easy in private companies to limit what an employee can do with their stock, and in public companies they can insert a clause in the contract to that effect just fine. Or just have very long vesting periods.

(Of course, as a would-be employee I would take these restrictions into account when deciding where to work.)

Re: Every company should be owned by its employees

#94
Employee stock options are not a new idea, obviously.

If the story is "every company should offer stock options to its employees", then sure, that's often a good business plan. The reason not every company does it to all its employees is probably that for those employees, it wouldn't affect incentives much and it would make payment subject to the vagaries of the stock market. Your barista at Starbucks is not going to increase the stock price no matter how well he fills your order; at the same time, maybe he wants to know how much he takes home every day.

If the story is "it should be the law that every company offers stock options", then that would be a dumb law for the reasons above.

If the story is "all companies must be fully employee-owned workers' cooperatives", then first, note that you are calling for a restriction on workers' rights: they have to be given part of their pay as stocks, and they can't sell them freely. Second, that will probably make markets work worse. There's a large economics literature on this: worker-owned cooperatives have not taken over the market, although they are an available institutional form, because (a) they find it hard to raise capital (b) they tend to make decisions that maximize worker welfare rather than profit, e.g. they won't sack underperforming divisions or expand in ways that dilute existing workers' stake.

Re: Every company should be owned by its employees

#95
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly; is someone who is essentially a replaceable scapegoat really worth millions per year in salary?

Sure, if it allows owners to stay in control and keep profiting from the people that perform the labour in the organisation. It's someone you can pin board and shareholder decisions on, as well as changes in market and accidents, that just goes away and lets some other people keep their power and profits instead of being accountable for their mistakes or lack of strategic performance.

But if it were just that, plenty of people would be willing to take the blame for less money.

I think the problem is you have to hire someone highly qualified and with relevant experience to at least show you're doing due diligence, and those people aren't cheap.

Re: Every company should be owned by its employees

#96
post #55

There are many advantages to having employees own shares in a company. However, I would add that it depends on the industry, type of company and other circumstances. These are factors that play a role and should add to a more nuanced discussion: - Ownership also implies responsibilities and risk. There might be capital risks or surety needed for certain industries. Not all people want this in their lives. - For any c…

As a business owner of a small growing business, I don’t want employees who aren’t invested in the company. I think we use that same rubric in startups. How is this any different?

Not everyone wants to have a substantial chunk of their net worth tied in one illiquid undiversified chunk that's highly correlated to how well their job is going.

Re: Every company should be owned by its employees

#97
Reminds of Varoufakis proposal which is way more radical tl;dr:

——————

To imagine what transcending capitalism might mean in practice requires rethinking the ownership of corporations.

Imagine that shares resemble electoral votes, which can be neither bought nor sold. Like students who receive a library card upon registration, new staff receive a single share granting a single vote to be cast in all-shareholder ballots deciding every matter of the corporation — from management and planning issues to the distribution of net revenues and bonuses.

Suddenly, the profit-wage distinction makes no sense and corporations are cut down to size, so boosting market competition. When a baby is born, the central bank automatically grants them a trust fund (or personal capital account) that is periodically topped up with a universal basic dividend. When the child becomes a teenager, the central bank throws in a free checking account.

Workers move freely from company to company, carrying with them their trust-fund capital, which they may lend to the company they work in or to others.

Because there are no equities to turbocharge with massive fictitious capital, finance becomes delightfully boring — and stable. States drop all personal and sales taxes, instead taxing only corporate revenues, land, and activities detrimental to the commons.

—————

Excerpt from https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/commentanalysis/arid-3...

Re: Every company should be owned by its employees

#98
post #74
post #68

Worker co-ops and ESOPs are already available as business structures. If they’re better, they will be more common, it’s as simple as that. Mandating employee ownership is ridiculous. In terms of policy I think a cap on revenue per employee for a privately held company and a cap on individual ownership is a better solution to reducing income inequality. That and eliminating involuntary unemployment so that companies h…

What is gained by preventing the company from accepting more money than your revenue cap? It would be bad for everyone. What are you trying to optimise?

They can have more revenue than the cap I’m just saying they should be publicly listed.

Re: Every company should be owned by its employees

#99

How about every employee instead gets money every month, and then can go out an buy shares in any company they want, their own or others?

How does that work when 60% of Americans are living paycheck to paycheck? When you're not sure if you'll manage to pay the electricity bills to keep your fridge turned on, is your first thought going to be "let's invest in the market!"?

Interpreted charitably, you are making an argument that people's comp should be higher.

But I don't see any argument that paying that higher comp in the form of shares instead of in the form of cash is any better?

(Unless you want to imply that people are too dumb and need to be protected from themselves, and that why we need to give them more stocks instead of more cash? Or something else?)

Re: Every company should be owned by its employees

#100
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see. And you keep looking at billionaires instead of regulations or the things that make it possible, like housing regulations (talking Europe now, Idk America well enough). If you really set the market more free, you will automatically have more reasonably wealthy people bc of competition. When thede few billionaires exist due to governments favors we should think what is wrong with some people selling favors to o…

Free markets almost never can survive longterm without (sometimes extensive) regulation. Historically there might have been a few exceptions to that, but basically always you have a few good years and then the winner(s) who emerges starts abusing their position (even without any regulation that might make it easier for them to do that). Unregulated markets tend to be inherently unstable. And it’s not so much less vs…

> Free markets almost never can survive longterm without (sometimes extensive) regulation.

There is no such thing as "without regulation". Nobody is suggesting a system in which murder is legal and the most powerful warlord gets a monopoly.

But there is a difference between "the government enforces contracts and anti-trust laws and prices major externalities" and "the government micromanages the economy and is captured by the incumbents".

So for example, a free market doesn't need zoning density restrictions. Their absence has no apparent mechanism that would lead to a monopoly. Therefore, a freer market in which the government has no power to impose zoning density restrictions is better than the current one in which that is possible and is consequently making housing unaffordable. Depriving the government of the authority to do that is a viable mechanism by which that form of corruption/inefficiency is avoided.

> And then you have industries which simply can’t be allowed to be privately owned unless there is extensive regulation (because free competition is almost impossible in those sectors): utilities, banking, transportation etc. sometimes even telecom (e.g. roaming fees in the EU).

But even in these industries the necessary regulation is narrow and should be directed to isolating the natural monopoly from any other offering, e.g. roads are a natural monopoly but vehicle manufacturing isn't, so the government provides roads but the private market provides cars.

Conversely, the US has last mile ISPs providing phone and TV service, which isn't adequately isolating the last mile and then we get regulatory capture and corruption. It's not obvious they should even be providing transit, rather than having an entity that narrowly maintains the fiber in the street and does nothing else.

You're certainly right that it isn't just a matter of "more regulation" or "less regulation", but it is a matter of removing many of the existing regulations because they specifically are the source of the high costs and market concentration.

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