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Doctor-prescribed videogame for ADHD

endeavorrx.com

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Re: Doctor-prescribed videogame for ADHD

#91

Post by latentsea »

xlii wrote: post #71

I think this is a snake oil, but since (as other commenters mentioned) it seems to bring benefits even though it’s mediocre game I have another question. Would it be possible that ANY video game has a positive effect on ADHD? I’m wondering because usually games reward focus and provide plethora of stimulus both visually and auditory.

>Would it be possible that ANY video game has a positive effect on ADHD?

Some have very detrimental effects. Games are inherently interesting. Usually much more interesting than homework and/or housework. So, you start playing video games and all of a sudden you can't switch your attention back to the homework or housework when you need to. This causes lots of friction between you and the other people in your life that expect things of you.

It's a fundamental difficulty of regulating attention, not staying focused. That means either keeping it on something when you need to OR switching it away from something when you need to.

In my experience an enormous class of problems stems from being unable to switch your attention away from something that has just absolutely grabbed a hold of you and that causing you to be scolded by those around you day in day out for not meeting expectations.

Re: Doctor-prescribed videogame for ADHD

#93

Post by cbsmith »

Micanthus wrote: post #84
ykonstant wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which non-stimulant medication do you have in mind?

Likely guanfacine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guanfacine Looks really promising for people who don't like stimulants or can't take them for other reasons, slowly gaining popularity as well. Unfortunately not yet approved for adults in Europe, or I would have tried it. I'm fine with stimulants, but I'm a little wary of the effects on heart health over decades and I would like my appetite back. I also dislike that w…

This stuff knocked me on my ass when I took it. I literally had to lie down on numerous occasions. I'm just an anecdotal case, but it unfortunately did not work for me at all.

Re: Doctor-prescribed videogame for ADHD

#94

Post by latentsea »

ProjectArcturis wrote: post #44
ryanwhitney wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They include some clinical research info at the end of the usage instructions PDF[0]. One says results were not statistically significant and the other has a warning that it may be placebo effect since they didn’t have a “sham control group”. (I don't have enough stats knowledge to know what any of this actually means though.) 0: https://www.endeavorrx.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/Endeav... (pdf)

In their largest study, they found that 4 weeks of treatment improved ADHD scores by 1 standard deviation, and this was highly significant. That's the equivalent of going from the 5th percentile to the 35th - definitely a meaningful improvement.

Did they measure it in "how much you get yelled at"? That's my yardstick for how bad my symptoms are in any given week.

Re: Doctor-prescribed videogame for ADHD

#95

Post by romwell »

ProjectArcturis wrote: post #47
odo1242 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a person who did study statistics, they found absolutely nothing useful, for the most part, if what you say is correct. (Basically, everything they found can be attributed to random chance, and there’s no proof their game is anything special compared to other games)

Did we read the same thing? "The primary endpoint was achieved, mean change from baseline on the TOVA API was 0.93 in the EndeavorRx group versus 0.03 in the control group (p=0.006). "

I'm sorry, but have you looked at the TOVA API[1]?

I have.

Put simply, it's bullshit — and one that doesn't even purport to measure ADHD (which, indeed, is not something one could measure on a linear scale).

It has nothing to do with how we experience ADHD symptoms and traits.

It does, however, look like something one could train for by... playing videogames.

Surprise, playing videogames makes one statistically better at videogames! Now pay me.

Disclaimer: I have ADHD, and have written a small wiki about it, which quite a few folks with ADHD have found useful:

https://romankogan.net/adhd

The same remains to be said of the product we're discussing.

[1] https://tovatest.com/how-tova-works/

Re: Doctor-prescribed videogame for ADHD

#96

Post by romwell »

diob wrote: post #57
ProjectArcturis wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did we read the same thing? "The primary endpoint was achieved, mean change from baseline on the TOVA API was 0.93 in the EndeavorRx group versus 0.03 in the control group (p=0.006). "

I couldn't find anything incredibly definitive on TOVA, but based on https://www.queensu.ca/rarc/sites/rarcwww/files/uploaded_fil... it does seem incredibly useless / statistically insignificant.

From their own description, it has absolutely nothing to do with ADHD.

As in: there's not even a claim it correlates with how strongly people experience ADHD symptoms.

Re: Doctor-prescribed videogame for ADHD

#97

Post by close04 »

dailykoder wrote: post #77

>The current cost for EndeavorRx is $99 for a 30 day prescription. Why is everything subscription based nowadays? Even without a subscription $99 would seem a lot to me. I guess because something something server costs and update development? Or is it just plain greed? PS: Programming is absolutely fantastic, too, when you have ADHD (an probably even if you don't have it). It also doesn't cost a dime and there is ple…

> 30 day prescription

> Why is everything subscription based nowadays?

It's a prescription (written note from the doctor) but this looks like a long term regimen so you could call it a subscription too. The reason is almost definitely profit. As a game there's no reason for it to be this expensive. As a medical treatment I doubt the R&D justifies the cost.

Re: Doctor-prescribed videogame for ADHD

#98

Post by Dayshine »

gcheong wrote: post #58
ProjectArcturis wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"When the facts change, I don't change my opinion."

Which facts? I was wrong about the evidence needed for marketing authorization but, if I’m not mistaken, they would need that authorization in order to market the product in the first place so mentioning the FDA authorization would, in my opinion, potentially give people the wrong impression that the FDA has endorsed the product at a level (e.g. approval) which I don’t believe the FDA has done at this point.

They went through "De Novo" premarket review as their medical device was distinct from any previous devices. This is a higher standard than the normal "510(k)" process. Both tracks involve a lot of evidence, a lot of documents, and a lot of scrutiny from the FDA.

They went through the harder track of FDA approval for medical devices.

I have no idea why you seem to think the primary way for the FDA to approve of new treatments is somehow... not them approving of it?

The wording is really poor. "Pre-market authorization" is their approval process. As in, you don't get to tell anybody that your device has any medical benefit unless we've assessed it.

Re: Doctor-prescribed videogame for ADHD

#99

Post by poulpy123 »

dailykoder wrote: post #77

>The current cost for EndeavorRx is $99 for a 30 day prescription. Why is everything subscription based nowadays? Even without a subscription $99 would seem a lot to me. I guess because something something server costs and update development? Or is it just plain greed? PS: Programming is absolutely fantastic, too, when you have ADHD (an probably even if you don't have it). It also doesn't cost a dime and there is ple…

It's because it makes more money and is more stable than once time buy. And it's especially expensive because it's "medical": both because it is more expensive to have a medical stamps of approval (although I'm not sure here) and because people don't have many alternatives

Re: Doctor-prescribed videogame for ADHD

#100

Post by fleischhauf »

dailykoder wrote: post #77

>The current cost for EndeavorRx is $99 for a 30 day prescription. Why is everything subscription based nowadays? Even without a subscription $99 would seem a lot to me. I guess because something something server costs and update development? Or is it just plain greed? PS: Programming is absolutely fantastic, too, when you have ADHD (an probably even if you don't have it). It also doesn't cost a dime and there is ple…

everything is subscription based, because companies have a continuous income stream (as opposed to one time large payment). With an continuous income stream you can plan better.
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