Live data from Hacker News

Short-term rentals disrupting SF housing market

sfgate.com

91–100 of 107 posts

Re: Short-term rentals disrupting SF housing market

#91
post #69
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in Chicago and rented in Chicago for many years and I never saw a lease that hadn't been drafted by a lawyer. Most leases are boilerplate --- let alone rentals without leases . If you're renting an apartment without a lease, something shady is going on. But look, in the meantime, can we just implicitly narrow the conversation down to the normal case of "renters with actual leases"? This is a stupid tangent. Ob…

A rental without a lease? That sounds like a friend renting our a spare bedroom to another friend. I would propose that without a lease, it ceases to be a rental, because neither side has any obligation to the other. Even slumlords require signed leases.

I, like the others in this thread, can only speak to Chicago laws. Here, a verbal lease is a perfectly valid lease, subject to the laws of the city and state (we usually call it "month-to-month"). I wouldn't say it's exactly common, but it's not exactly uncommon either. My last apartment was rented month-to-month for 4+ years (and was a nice apartment with a nice landlord).

In the cases I'm most familiar with, the apartment starts with a lease, and rather than renew the lease specifically, just shifts to a verbal lease, provided the landlord and tenant trust each other. (Were I renting an apartment to someone else, there isn't a chance in hell I would do it without a lease, though.)

Re: Short-term rentals disrupting SF housing market

#92
post #91
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A rental without a lease? That sounds like a friend renting our a spare bedroom to another friend. I would propose that without a lease, it ceases to be a rental, because neither side has any obligation to the other. Even slumlords require signed leases.

I, like the others in this thread, can only speak to Chicago laws. Here, a verbal lease is a perfectly valid lease, subject to the laws of the city and state (we usually call it "month-to-month"). I wouldn't say it's exactly common, but it's not exactly uncommon either. My last apartment was rented month-to-month for 4+ years (and was a nice apartment with a nice landlord). In the cases I'm most familiar with, the ap…

I really have to object to the idea that verbal leases are common in Chicago. I think if you set out to find an apartment, an attached house, a carriage house, or a freestanding house today, you'd have a very hard time finding one that didn't have a written lease attached to it.

But obviously this is a tangent. To whatever extent verbal leases are common or not, it's impossible to argue that formal written leases are uncommon. They are the norm.

Re: Short-term rentals disrupting SF housing market

#93
post #10

Much of the criticism of Airbnb in this article seems to stem from renters "subletting" their apartments to vacationers. Why does Airbnb allow renters to list their apartments on Airbnb at all? In virtually no case does a renter have a lease that permits Airbnb-style listings; the boilerplate lease that virtually everyone works from requires landlord approval for each subletter. It seems unconscionable to rent an apa…

"Breaking that agreement for profit is unethical."

Of course it is. There was another story about a tenant in NY getting sued after his landlord started renting out apartments.

But it is also true that your lease could allow you to sublet with an AirBnB type arrangement, so for AirBnB they probably have you sign up saying "Yes, I am allowed to do this." and leave it up to the participants to be legal and if they aren't having the landlord deal with it.

A number of stories we have yet to hear are "AirBnB got me kicked out of my apartment." or "I was arrested sued by a hotel chain." kinds of stories. I think of them as the sounds of disruption. Basically they have created a market, very much like eBay created a market, or Craigslist, and suddenly there are commerce opportunities that didn't exist before, combined with a tight economy and poof, disruption.

Re: Short-term rentals disrupting SF housing market

#94

Two of my coworkers are in SF right now for WWDC, having flown there from Europe, and their AirBnB host was just handed an eviction notice for subletting - they have to leave immediately. So this article feels extremely ... timely. And I'll be in SF in 2 weeks for Google IO, also staying with an AirBnB host. Not the kind of article I want to read before flying out there :-)

Indeed. Makes me happy that I was unable to book with Airbnb and had to go with a motel for my trip to SF.

Re: Short-term rentals disrupting SF housing market

#95
post #42

Two of my coworkers are in SF right now for WWDC, having flown there from Europe, and their AirBnB host was just handed an eviction notice for subletting - they have to leave immediately. So this article feels extremely ... timely. And I'll be in SF in 2 weeks for Google IO, also staying with an AirBnB host. Not the kind of article I want to read before flying out there :-)

Having had this happen once, my only advice is to find hosts on AirBnB that own their properties. I know, not the majority for SF city, but there are quite a few home owners who are in control of their property and thus not under a tenant agreement. They might later have to pay the piper with regards to the city, but that's a much harder bone to pick. If you want references for property owners in San Fran or near by…

The owners might also have to pay the piper with regards to their mortgage holder unless they own the property outright - I'm pretty sure my mortgage prohibits commercial activity like this without prior approval, similar to what a lease agreement would say. (Of course, a bank is far less likely to find out than a landlord.)

Re: Short-term rentals disrupting SF housing market

#96
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

we are talking about homeowners who own a 2nd home and in many cases, have bought it expecting to rent it out at least part of the time. they went into that purchase with the mindset of sharing with strangers. i would be very interested in using airbnb if i owned a vacation home.

This practice is part of the problem. It is bidding up the cost of apartments for locals who need a place to live.

I have no idea if AirBnB does that to apartment rents but I do know that some formerly sleepy coastal towns became too expensive (in recent decades) for locals to buy a house due to second homes being bought there by wealthy non-residents. I have no idea how to fix such a problem but I know it is real.

Re: Short-term rentals disrupting SF housing market

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This... there was also a recent NYT article about how new workers moving to SF are displacing existing residents by competing for apartment rentals. Having thousands of new residents moving into a city should be viewed as an opportunity, not a problem, especially considering the budget issues out here. SF needs to stop obstructing new construction and allow for more vertical residential housing like New York and othe…

There's been quite a bit of new housing added in the past decade or two, hasn't there? A bunch of SoMa has undergone semi-recent conversions from industrial to residential use, and there've been several large condo buildings going up (Millennium Tower, Infinity, One Rincon Hill, Paramount), as well as hotel/condo combinations (Four Seasons, St. Regis Museum Tower).

Not really, when you think about the number of units in those buildings total (I'd guess a few thousand at most) versus the boom in Bay hiring.

I lived in NY before SF and at least subjectively, it feels like more new (incremental, not replacement) apartment units were put into say, Sixth Avenue between 23rd and 35th in the last decade than in all of San Francisco. (I'm guessing that is about ~3,000 units based on 10 blocks of ~40-story apartment buildings on two sides of the street.) SOMA lofts are nice but at only 3-4 stories high, they don't add a lot of units to the count.

SF is the second most densely populated city in the US behind NYC. If we need more housing, we need to build upwards.

Re: Short-term rentals disrupting SF housing market

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This... there was also a recent NYT article about how new workers moving to SF are displacing existing residents by competing for apartment rentals. Having thousands of new residents moving into a city should be viewed as an opportunity, not a problem, especially considering the budget issues out here. SF needs to stop obstructing new construction and allow for more vertical residential housing like New York and othe…

There's been quite a bit of new housing added in the past decade or two, hasn't there? A bunch of SoMa has undergone semi-recent conversions from industrial to residential use, and there've been several large condo buildings going up (Millennium Tower, Infinity, One Rincon Hill, Paramount), as well as hotel/condo combinations (Four Seasons, St. Regis Museum Tower).

See the article I linked to above: "Meanwhile, San Francisco—one of the most expensive cities in the United States—added just 418 new housing units in 2011, the fewest since 1993. What’s more, 149 existing units were removed, leading to a nearly nonexistent increase in housing supply."

So: No.

Re: Short-term rentals disrupting SF housing market

#99
post #95
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having had this happen once, my only advice is to find hosts on AirBnB that own their properties. I know, not the majority for SF city, but there are quite a few home owners who are in control of their property and thus not under a tenant agreement. They might later have to pay the piper with regards to the city, but that's a much harder bone to pick. If you want references for property owners in San Fran or near by…

The owners might also have to pay the piper with regards to their mortgage holder unless they own the property outright - I'm pretty sure my mortgage prohibits commercial activity like this without prior approval, similar to what a lease agreement would say. (Of course, a bank is far less likely to find out than a landlord.)

Generally, the mortgage doesn't prevent this -- the insurance does. It is extremely unlikely that your mortgage would be in default because of this. However, your insurance company can refuse to pay out certain damages if they feel you have an uninsured business at home. This usually requires an insurance policy with business and/or rental coverage. I don't see anywhere in my mortgage that says I would be in default if I sublet rooms, and mine is a fairly vanilla mortgage from a large lender.

In fact, many home owners regularly rent out rooms without risk of mortgage "cancellation" or default [1]. They do however need to have suitable insurance to cover losses associated with renters and the business of renting. It's possible the insurance companies might catch onto this with AirBnB the way that landlords have and put the squeeze on homeowners and require they buy greater coverage, but there's really little chance that a mortgage holder would find the homeowner in default just because they have renters.

However, the only caveat is that FHA loans, conventional loans backed by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and Veteran's Administration loans as well as some State-backed loans do have a requirement that a homeowner not rent out their mortgaged property within the first year of the loan, especially if you have financed as a primary residence and/or a first-time home buyer. While the mortgage holder has the right to call the loan if this happens, in reality, they wouldn't as rental income would serve to make it more likely for you to pay your balance. [2]

And all this really applies if you are renting out your entire house and plan to live elsewhere, thereby making it a secondary residence. If the house remains your primary residence and you are subletting a room, or even the whole house while you are on vacation, then these restrictions are not in place. If you are curious, read the terms of the mortgage loan agreement. There should be something about conditions of occupancy in there.

For example, here is the Occupancy Clause in the Freddie Mac Fannie Mae Uniform Instrument:

"6. Occupancy. Borrower shall occupy, establish, and use the property as Borrower's principal residence within 60 days after the execution of this Security Instrument and shall continue to occupy the Property as Borrower's principal residence for at least one year after the date of occupancy, unless Lender otherwise agrees in writing, which consent shall not be unreasonably withheld, or unless extenuating circumstances exist which are beyond Borrower's control" [6]

In addition, some home owners associations (HOA), co-op boards, and condo associations limit rentals. If you run afoul of those rules and you could face fines. So, perhaps HOAs and Condo associations might start to take notice and put the squeeze on property owners. You can also lose first-time home buyer tax credits if you rent out your entire mortgaged property and live somewhere else, but once again, that is not the typical scenario for AirBnB hosts.

A bigger issue is that many cities restrict rentals based on zoning restrictions. Plus you have other obligations when it comes to tenants and being a landlord -- I'm not sure if the duration of the rent matters, so AirBnB hosts might have to check their local zoning and Tenant's Rights statutes. [3] [4]

But all of the above is not equivalent with a tenant violating their rental lease. In this case, the tenant can face an immediate eviction for violating their lease terms. This is much more frightening than risking uncovered liability in the case of an insurance claim, fines from HOA and Condo associations, and the extremely unlikely risk of mortgage call, if you happen to have a loan that prevents such a thing.

[1] http://www.ehow.com/about_5398870_can-rent-out-home.html

[2] http://budgeting.thenest.com/happen-rent-out-mortgaged-prope...

[3] http://www.trulia.com/voices/Property_QandA/can_I_rent_rooms...

[4] http://www.trulia.com/voices/Rental_Basics/Can_I_Rent_Rooms_...

[5] http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/off-topic-discussion/...

[6] http://socialize.morningstar.com/NewSocialize/forums/t/22063...

[7] http://budgeting.thenest.com/occupancy-clause-mortgage-20795...

Re: Short-term rentals disrupting SF housing market

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's been quite a bit of new housing added in the past decade or two, hasn't there? A bunch of SoMa has undergone semi-recent conversions from industrial to residential use, and there've been several large condo buildings going up (Millennium Tower, Infinity, One Rincon Hill, Paramount), as well as hotel/condo combinations (Four Seasons, St. Regis Museum Tower).

See the article I linked to above: "Meanwhile, San Francisco—one of the most expensive cities in the United States—added just 418 new housing units in 2011, the fewest since 1993. What’s more, 149 existing units were removed, leading to a nearly nonexistent increase in housing supply." So: No.

That's a 1-year measure, which has a lot of fluctuations; something like a 10-year measure, showing a general trend, is more interesting to me.

Clicking through a few times to http://blog.sfgate.com/cityinsider/2012/05/17/after-a-lull-s..., 2011 is apparently an anomaly, and around 20-25k new units (net) were added over the past decade. In addition, 2k new units were approved in 2011. Still not too high, admittedly (a 7% increase in housing stock over a decade).

Post reply on HN