Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The problem is that finding the people responsible can be extremely hard > What Boeing really needs is a complete change in management culture Who is ultimately responsible for management at a company though? The CEO and the other C-level people. This isn't really the daunting difficult problem you make it out to be: the buck stops at the C-suite. Who else could possibly be ultimately responsible??
You can not punish someone for a crime they didn't commit and had no knowledge of. That is ridiculous and a perversion of justice.
Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes
91–100 of 611 posts
Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes
#92Earlier quoted context omitted.
Make the CEO responsible, want those big rewards (high ceo pay) get ready to deal with big responsibility. I’m sure if CEOs were criminally liable things would change very quickly.
The criminal precedent of punishing a person for a crime they didn't commit and had no knowledge of is so bad that I honestly didn't think any reasonable person could come up with this.
It’s the CEO’s job to ensure that sufficient measures are in place to prevent failure. They should not be punished for accidents; they should be punished if the accidents were reasonably predictable.
Which was most certainly the case when they decided to the redundant AoA sensor an optional extra.
Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes
#93Earlier quoted context omitted.
Proving something like criminal negligence is extremely hard. The supply chain of software in aerospace is extremely long and finding out who exactly was acting negligent is near impossible.
> When people say I changed the culture of Boeing, that was the intent, so that it’s run like a business rather than a great engineering firm. Yeah, hard to prove.
It is not illegal to be a bad CEO.
Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes
#94Earlier quoted context omitted.
>If they know they face prison if the company plays foul in a major way, they will put pressure on their deputies to change culture. It is completely ridiculous to criminally prosecute leadership for crimes which happened without their knowing/consent/acknowledgment. It would be a perversion of justice to jail someone because many levels down someone else committed a crime. The best corporate culture does not prevent…
They should be liable by default. But of course people at a lower position can be liable for their own crimes. That is for a court to decide.
Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes
#95Earlier quoted context omitted.
The problem is that finding the people responsible can be extremely hard, so you have to go against the corporation itself. Punishing a corporation is easy, but the government hates doing it for obvious reasons. It means ruining something which is useful to you and punishing tens of thousands of completely innocent people, with inevitable layoffs. What Boeing really needs is a complete change in management culture, a…
Why can't the government mandate a board replacement? The board can figure out for themselves who is responsible, I would guess the finger would typically point at the CEO.
Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes
#96Earlier quoted context omitted.
Well what are the ridiculously high salaries for if they don't even take responsibility. I mean parents are liable for their children, so why should a CEO not be made responsible for the culture of the corporation underneath them?
Because that would be a perversion of justice. You can not pay someone to take on criminal liability for crimes they didn't commit and could not have any knowledge of. Just imagine what precedent this would set if it was allowed. If courts would accept that criminal liability can be transferred in exchange of cash, how would the justice system look like? "Culture" is completely ephemeral and having a court of law det…
Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes
#97Earlier quoted context omitted.
You can not punish someone for a crime they didn't commit and had no knowledge of. That is ridiculous and a perversion of justice.
It seems to me the real perversion of justice is executives constantly avoiding consequences for their actions
CEOs, surprisingly are protected by the law as well.
Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes
#98Earlier quoted context omitted.
The criminal precedent of punishing a person for a crime they didn't commit and had no knowledge of is so bad that I honestly didn't think any reasonable person could come up with this.
There is immense precedent to punish a person for a crime they were responsible for and that they should have known was happening.
Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes
#99https://swz.it/europes-failure-to-deal-with-failure/
And so you really don’t want to set up a situation where the operators of a company are by-default responsible for anything that their company does. Of course, that has limits and people can still be individually charged for crimes, but the point here is that this is not a by-default thing. This problem is magnified by a thousand with a company like Boeing that is so intertwined with the government and not easily replaceable.
It seems to me that the solution to this kind of issue might come from studying successful occupations done by the US - post-WW2 Japan is the one that comes to mind. The Allies (mainly the Americans) managed to defeat an enemy state, punish some (but not all) of the people it deemed to have done wrong, and then set up systems which turned out to be largely effective at putting the country on a good path. Fixing an entity like Boeing seems similar in nature, if much smaller than an actual country.
Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes
#100Earlier quoted context omitted.
The criminal precedent of punishing a person for a crime they didn't commit and had no knowledge of is so bad that I honestly didn't think any reasonable person could come up with this.
There were two crashes. The CEO most certainly should have known about the problems after the first one. It’s the CEO’s job to ensure that sufficient measures are in place to prevent failure. They should not be punished for accidents; they should be punished if the accidents were reasonably predictable. Which was most certainly the case when they decided to the redundant AoA sensor an optional extra.
Then drag him to court for that. But this is totally different to charging him with the crimes of other people he couldn't have known about.