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Why privacy is important, and having "nothing to hide" is irrelevant (2016)

robindoherty.com

91–100 of 139 posts

Re: Why privacy is important, and having "nothing to hide" is irrelevant (2016)

#91
post #75

Secrets are real (and hard to keep), but privacy is just the politeness of your neighbours. We should never confuse the two - people seem to think that a right to privacy means a right to secrecy. It does not and never can. People have behaved badly enough with so called online anonymity. We will have our entire lives stripped bare and laid out on a digital plate - this will enable an incredible outpouring of new les…

it’s not the data that’s collected, it’s who uses it and how any data that is being collected is at risk from being misused. only data that is not collected is safe. until we are able to fully protect data from misuse (which i believe is impossible), it is better to not collect data in the first place.

We either live in a society with laws that can protect us or we don’t.

If we don’t believe in our society, if we need to carry guns all the time to protect us from the anarchy, it is of course really hard to believe we can build enough protections to prevent retargeted adverts.

Re: Why privacy is important, and having "nothing to hide" is irrelevant (2016)

#92
post #89

Governments will always seek more surveillance of citizens - it's like crack to them. If we don't push back and work hard to protect our freedoms and privacy then we will end up in something like Orwell's 1984. See what's happening in China. The surveillance and oppression are particularly severe in the Xinjiang region, where authorities have implemented a multi-layered system of monitoring and control. This includes…

I just got my local government to drastically ratchet back surveillance powers they already had, through patient organizing and advocacy. It wasn't even all that difficult. This "governments will always seek more surveillance" thing isn't axiomatic; in a lot of cases, it's probably just lazy cynicism.

Curious to learn more about how you did this.

But I agree with your sentiment- we often surrender to the idea that ruthless evil has taken control without even trying to engage civically.

Re: Why privacy is important, and having "nothing to hide" is irrelevant (2016)

#93
post #92
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just got my local government to drastically ratchet back surveillance powers they already had, through patient organizing and advocacy. It wasn't even all that difficult. This "governments will always seek more surveillance" thing isn't axiomatic; in a lot of cases, it's probably just lazy cynicism.

Curious to learn more about how you did this. But I agree with your sentiment- we often surrender to the idea that ruthless evil has taken control without even trying to engage civically.

Background here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40227280

We got the cameras rolled back even further; we now, by municipal policy, don't trust the Illinois LEADS stolen vehicle hotlist, so cameras can no longer be used to stop "stolen" cars (too many of the stops we were doing were mis-listed), only cars with stolen license plates (for which there is no innocent explanation). We're also the only muni in Illinois that won't automatically share camera data with out-of-state LEOs.

Re: Why privacy is important, and having "nothing to hide" is irrelevant (2016)

#94

Secrets are real (and hard to keep), but privacy is just the politeness of your neighbours. We should never confuse the two - people seem to think that a right to privacy means a right to secrecy. It does not and never can. People have behaved badly enough with so called online anonymity. We will have our entire lives stripped bare and laid out on a digital plate - this will enable an incredible outpouring of new les…

No friend, it's also absolutely the data that's collected and how it could changeably be used for good or bad and vice versa at a whim down the road. If modern times have taught us anything it's that centralized troves of data almost inevitably get leaked and misused sooner or later. You're ridiculously naive if you trust anyone with that kind of information no matter how nicely they presented their reasons for wanting it.

I don't give a damn how wholesomely the reasons for stripping one's ability to be private and anonymous are couched, they should be no excuse for actually applying such a magnifying glass to human lives en masse.

Re: Why privacy is important, and having "nothing to hide" is irrelevant (2016)

#95
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Individuals do have a right to privacy and, by extension, secrecy. You are not entitled to information others do not want you to have, no matter how well-intentioned or well-resourced you are. The only sort of society where your view should be acceptable is a society where every individual accepts their every thought and action is observed equally by all other complicit individuals.

It's pretty easy to find the sex offenders in my area through online registries. I can imagine that is information the sex offenders don't want me to have. Not sure what conspiracy this makes me complicit in though. Maybe you can enlighten me.

If we want a society where all humans are equal, my point still stands. I am imagining a future society that fulfills its obligation to equality among all its members. Perfect openness is the only solution.

In your sex offender example, the sex offender would still be allowed to maintain their secrecy, but they would forgo their right to observe the thoughts or actions of those members who are completely open.

Re: Why privacy is important, and having "nothing to hide" is irrelevant (2016)

#96
post #71
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because who you are keeping something private from is often more important than what you are keeping private. For example, there are plenty of things I would be fine sharing with the anonymous internet that I wouldn't share with my coworkers. My coworkers knowing something embarrassing about me has obvious harm. There is no real harm in strangers knowing something embarrassing about me. And companies and governments…

The problem with making this case is that the threats are kind of stochastic. Usually what happens to an individual is that either a mistake occurs or some unpredictable factor changes to suddenly get them targeted. I had a relative who was blindsided by identity theft, fending off creditors for bills that were in her name because she was in some breach (I think maybe the sony one? Often not even easy to say how it h…

> Trans people who wanted to assimilate and blend in have by and large been blindsided by the massive increase in scrutiny they've gotten from random people and increasingly lawmakers in the last few years in much of the western world, because some machinations of internet culture made the right wing start thinking about them a lot all of a sudden in the last decade.

The reason they're getting more scrutiny is because of the negative impact of pro-trans ideological policies on women's rights.

I can't speak for the US, but in the UK the turning point was a combination of two things: firstly, the right-wing Conservative government announcing that they were going to remove all barriers for anyone to change their "legal sex", with no medical diagnosis required at all. Secondly, press coverage, from news outlets across the political spectrum, of a male rapist incarcerated in a women's prison, who sexually assaulted several female prisoners there.

This caused an uprising of women, initially groups of left-wing feminists who most rapidly organised, to push back against this "gender self-id" policy proposal and against men in women's prisons. And then against the whole principle of males identifying themselves as female and being given special privileges because of this.

Only later on did right-wing groups take an interest in this as a division against the mainstream political left who were still very much in favour of these policies. Though we've just got a new centre-left Labour government and it seems likely now, based on what they said during the election campaign, that they're going to prioritise protecting single-sex spaces for women over the desires of males who demand to access them.

And this is because they've realised that they can't just unilaterally diminish women's rights and expect the electorate to follow along. The increased scrutiny worked.

Re: Why privacy is important, and having "nothing to hide" is irrelevant (2016)

#97
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree that people are complacent. What we are seeing today is the same thing East-germany saw under The Stasi. The primary issue is that there is no means to correct the situation non-violently. When you have people as a group lie for profit, and they corrupt your representatives and there is no one to hold them to account. They don't give you the choice, and you can't hold them accountable first because you fin…

> primary issue is that there is no means to correct the situation non-violently Are you a regulator voter? Do you have a dialogue with your electeds’ offices? If not, try starting there. Express, as unemotionally as you can, why you believe this is something you believe in. If possible, get your views seconded in writing. If you’re in America or Europe, there are plenty of non-violent remedies at the ready. The prob…

> Are you a regular voter

I regularly reach out to my representatives in writing. Nothing ever comes of it. None of the issues I bring up are ever brought into discussion. Fake job postings, and interferance in labor relations have been a recent subject that only receives boilerplate responses. No action has been taken, its been 5 years since I started doing this which is an appropriate measure of sampling time to show trends and inform on larger systems, though 10 years is better.

I vote every time I have a chance. The problem with voting systems is first, the money vote (tweedism) just to get on a ballot. It's a filter and acts to make the system captive to those with concentrated wealth, by limiting those who can successfully run.

Second, the concentration of representative power in few representatives leads to dynamics where many are not represented simply because there are too many competing interests within that group (as opposed to an upper limit per representative like it used to be @80,000).

Seniority by committee limits power to only those who get re-elected regularly (further concentrating power).

Third, the voting as a plurality which is also exclusionary. You can skew any system holding at least 66 percent of the vote.

It is also an all or nothing vote (not ranked choice), where inherently when a representative can't win the majority, none of the people who voted for them technically have much representation among other competing and more favorable members of that group who voted for that person.

Finally,

> Please don't do this. Its one step below analogising petty complaints to Auschwitz.

These are not petty complaints. They are fundamental and foundational to the functional operation of any feedback system. Its based solidly in actual history, not hyperbole. Its not funny... at all. Archer is meant to be absurd and funny; its not a fair characterization or comparison.

There are many experts that are claiming the same thing because rational observable indicators are all showing that this is a growing existential problem. Rome fell largely because of corruption alongside external invasion. There are important lesson's which could be learned but are largely being ignored.

The dynamics are the same with most Empires (where a country seeks hegemony), and the majority of people have not been adequately educated to be able to even hold to rational conversation, instead putting forth beliefs in luei of observable facts being confident in their blindness.

That too is a problem because our enemies take advantage of that blindness.

If you've read any history about the Stasi, you'd know the systems they used to disunite the population, most of those system's have been used by government's today. They also enrolled others in a constant fear of betrayal by those close, and that's very similar to all the embedded devices (where a digital automata/soldier is embedded in each household spying on them).

These things are serious, and deserve rational respect and following rational rules to have any discussion.

Re: Why privacy is important, and having "nothing to hide" is irrelevant (2016)

#98
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with making this case is that the threats are kind of stochastic. Usually what happens to an individual is that either a mistake occurs or some unpredictable factor changes to suddenly get them targeted. I had a relative who was blindsided by identity theft, fending off creditors for bills that were in her name because she was in some breach (I think maybe the sony one? Often not even easy to say how it h…

> Trans people who wanted to assimilate and blend in have by and large been blindsided by the massive increase in scrutiny they've gotten from random people and increasingly lawmakers in the last few years in much of the western world, because some machinations of internet culture made the right wing start thinking about them a lot all of a sudden in the last decade. The reason they're getting more scrutiny is becaus…

Civil rights are not a zero-sum game. One group of people gaining rights doesn't take away the rights from another group, but that is commonly used as an argument to manipulate people into opposing the expansion of rights without confronting what that opposition really means. We saw it with integration in the US often presented as an infringement on the rights of white people. We saw it with gay marriage when people argued that it was somehow an affront to traditional heterosexual marriage. And now we are seeing it with people claiming that trans people are infringing on women's rights.

>Secondly, press coverage, from news outlets across the political spectrum, of a male rapist incarcerated in a women's prison, who sexually assaulted several female prisoners there.

This is a good example of what that manipulation looks like in action. I agree that prisoners should have a right to safety despite their crimes. But what should the priority be for someone with this position? It certainly wouldn't be putting more attention on a single case of assault over some 999 other examples of a prisoner getting assaulted[1]. The focus on the one case involving a trans person shows that the motivation isn't actually prisoner safety.

[1] - https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/may/13/revealed-alm...

Re: Why privacy is important, and having "nothing to hide" is irrelevant (2016)

#99
post #87
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree that people are complacent. What we are seeing today is the same thing East-germany saw under The Stasi. The primary issue is that there is no means to correct the situation non-violently. When you have people as a group lie for profit, and they corrupt your representatives and there is no one to hold them to account. They don't give you the choice, and you can't hold them accountable first because you fin…

> The primary issue is that there is no means to correct the situation non-violently I think that’s a rather absurd claim. The real problem is that most people couldn’t care less, they neither understand the issues and/or are in the “don’t have anything to hide” camp. Unfortunate I guess that’s just how democracy works..

It is not absurd, it is frightening, because when you look closely at the details of how the systems currently function it shows they are not functioning.

The rule of law is meant as a safeguard for non-violent conflict resolution. It requires 4 components. Accessibility and independent judiciary are two of the most important.

It currently costs an average person's yearly (unspent for necessity/food) salary to bring a case before a superior court to conclusion excluding some niches. That's roughly $50,000, and that was in 2020 dollars. Wages have been suppressed to create a cost wall that excludes those who don't make enough money. There are also other aspects such as forced arbitration, and front of line blocking (i.e. being unable to show standing until an agreement is nullified for discovery, when information that would show standing would be available once done).

You are mistaken. This isn't how democracy works. It is historically the early stages of totalitarianism, and those type of governments resort to menticide which is well documented (but largely not taught outside certain niches).

Robert Lifton, and John Meerloo both are experts and wrote books if you care to actually do your own research.

Re: Why privacy is important, and having "nothing to hide" is irrelevant (2016)

#100
post #80
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree that people are complacent. What we are seeing today is the same thing East-germany saw under The Stasi. The primary issue is that there is no means to correct the situation non-violently. When you have people as a group lie for profit, and they corrupt your representatives and there is no one to hold them to account. They don't give you the choice, and you can't hold them accountable first because you fin…

There's a lot to fear from revolutionary uprising, and I think people are very risk-averse, so this becomes a coordination problem even when there's perhaps widespread discontent I agree with your conclusion that most rich countries are totalitarian in character, and it feels so fundamentally absurd that a lot of how we got here was merely developing the capability and not doing enough to prevent it However, I don't…

> However, I don't think any kind of uprising is actually inevitable.

Certainly not yet, but with history you have to deal with things in a much wider time horizon. The mistakes most people make are having too narrow of a time horizon. The natural dynamics of people-based feedback systems have pulls in multiple directions to keep it in equilibrium. This served us well until perception was broken around the 1950s.

When the feedback system pulling us away from the cliff, in the opposite direction, are no longer functioning, inevitably (as a matter of time), the forces pushing us toward the cliff will push you over the cliff.

This is seen historically as escalating unrest, whose underlying cause is ignored, increasing violence, increasing coercive pressure, shortages, ceding of rights until you have none and its arbitrary.

The point of break is the moment a feedback system can no longer respond to stimuli to correct its equilibrium action. It is broken. The dynamics running up to catastrophe (as a system) almost guarantee it.

In captive systems where changes are done by the people who are incentivized to not solve the problem they simply have to sit back and do nothing and can enrich themselves (front of line blocking). What, after all, can people do about it given the differential of power and broken systems for feedback that would push back?

To answer your question, without privacy you can't organize. This is well documented since shortly after WW2 with regards to insurgency and counter-insurgency circles (i.e. how we fought against the Nazi's during WW2), and further examined with regards to modern day China. When the mere hint of someone not doing their best for the party is sufficient to punish them (and its arbitrary), people fall into menticidal spirals.

If not corrected, eventually, those in power will out of fear silence the dissenting voices under convenient accidents or limit their opportunities (social credit). Left unchecked it creates a environment where there is no hope for the future, and people stop having children. They may kill their own children to forgo the suffering (this was documented in The Wealth & Poverty of Nations with regards to Natives under the Spanish).

Already the manipulation of the currency has put the average person's ability to make enough to cover the expenses of having children in danger.

As the people who would seek reasonable conditions (not disadvantaged) most likely would be in the cohort of rational people, those leaders undermine their own power base of a strong citizenry (against foreign threats). This is well known structure in the fall of empires.

Additionally, when you have selection pressures towards the meek and irrational thinker, you sieve and eventually get a mono-culture of thought, which gets wiped out when they eventually come up against an existential crisis that requires the flexibility they killed off. There are many examples in history of artifacts where cultures died off and no one knows much about those cultures.

What the Stasi systems were capable of was about 1 generation behind our current disclosed systems. Its scaling faster as well with time. Its a very worrying time for the rational person to be alive.

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