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SCIM: Ncurses based, Vim-like spreadsheet

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Re: SCIM: Ncurses based, Vim-like spreadsheet

#91

This is really cool, but I don't think this is very useful. In my opinion: if you can use vim, you can probably code, or at least figure it out without too much trouble. If you can code, then you don't need a spreadsheet. You can just write a program to crunch the numbers, or produce a report etc. Excel is so popular, because it is a way for non-coders to crunch a bunch of numbers in a relatively easy way. And the be…

Spreadsheets have a much wider acceptance and lower threshold to pure data.

This is a poor man's excuse for not liking excel.

Re: SCIM: Ncurses based, Vim-like spreadsheet

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's.... my point. I'm skeptical that you'd be more efficient by doing spreadsheet operations on your terminal vs just using excel on your non-terminal.

Imagine having the ability doing your budgetting spreadsheet over SSH, okay never mind ...

Why would I choose to do such a basic task over SSH? I do all "office-type" tasks locally. Adding a network here is just over complicating.

Re: SCIM: Ncurses based, Vim-like spreadsheet

#93

This is really cool, but I don't think this is very useful. In my opinion: if you can use vim, you can probably code, or at least figure it out without too much trouble. If you can code, then you don't need a spreadsheet. You can just write a program to crunch the numbers, or produce a report etc. Excel is so popular, because it is a way for non-coders to crunch a bunch of numbers in a relatively easy way. And the be…

You forgot one thing: data entry. It is far more convenient to type tabular data in a spreadsheet app than in a REPL. I use it for simple SQL data, too. As Python coder I use visidata. Provides also fast and convenient aggregations etc.

And, btw, if you search for "distraction free writing",you will find that even some non-coders use vim.

Re: SCIM: Ncurses based, Vim-like spreadsheet

#94

This is really cool, but I don't think this is very useful. In my opinion: if you can use vim, you can probably code, or at least figure it out without too much trouble. If you can code, then you don't need a spreadsheet. You can just write a program to crunch the numbers, or produce a report etc. Excel is so popular, because it is a way for non-coders to crunch a bunch of numbers in a relatively easy way. And the be…

Spreadsheets have a much wider acceptance and lower threshold to pure data. This is a poor man's excuse for not liking excel.

> Spreadsheets have a much wider acceptance

I know. Most people don't know how to code, thus they are forced to use spreadsheets as I already mentioned.

> spreadsheets have a lower threshold to pure data

I'm not sure what you mean here. That it is easier for the average human to work with data using a spreadsheet compared to code?

Sure, as already mentioned. Most people don't know how to code.

But what I'm getting at is that a spreadsheet is the poor mans code.

And if you audience is coders (not the whole world), then why go for the worse option?

Re: SCIM: Ncurses based, Vim-like spreadsheet

#95

This is really cool, but I don't think this is very useful. In my opinion: if you can use vim, you can probably code, or at least figure it out without too much trouble. If you can code, then you don't need a spreadsheet. You can just write a program to crunch the numbers, or produce a report etc. Excel is so popular, because it is a way for non-coders to crunch a bunch of numbers in a relatively easy way. And the be…

That's wrong in more than one way IMO.

While vi might be a code editor first and foremost, not all vi users are coders. There are copy writers, academic and literature, having a need for fast and focussed touch typing (George R. R. Martin comes to mind as prominent WordStar user). The entire point of SGML/XML/HTML markup is to be able to create rich text documents without binary formats and special editors; this is also the case with Wiki syntaxes like markdown, which have been around since long before John Gruber's original Markdown.PL and are directly supported as a shortref customisation in SGML, from 1986, BTW.

Conversely, even if you are a coder, classic spreadsheets are extremely useful for any type of ad-hoc reproducible calculation (such as for taxes or other personal or business finance stuff). You really should check out spreadsheets if you haven't already; the point is that you can cross-reference cell values and copy/paste with relative cell positions to create large calculation tables/matrices, then update base values and perform "what-if" analyses, etc. etc. Using cell formulas is more like a logical programming language environment. I've used it for all kinds of reports apart from financials (benchmarks, construction/project planning, even a Tic Tac Toe game in school out of boredom).

Re: SCIM: Ncurses based, Vim-like spreadsheet

#96
post #93

This is really cool, but I don't think this is very useful. In my opinion: if you can use vim, you can probably code, or at least figure it out without too much trouble. If you can code, then you don't need a spreadsheet. You can just write a program to crunch the numbers, or produce a report etc. Excel is so popular, because it is a way for non-coders to crunch a bunch of numbers in a relatively easy way. And the be…

You forgot one thing: data entry. It is far more convenient to type tabular data in a spreadsheet app than in a REPL. I use it for simple SQL data, too. As Python coder I use visidata. Provides also fast and convenient aggregations etc. And, btw, if you search for "distraction free writing",you will find that even some non-coders use vim.

That's a good point about the data entry.

I've never really had a problem entering data into CSV file or database, but I will concede that it is even easier to enter the data via a spreadsheet.

However, I still think custom software (with proper UI for input if necessary) is the better way of dealing with the actual solution that a spreadsheet is ultimately trying to solve.

Re: SCIM: Ncurses based, Vim-like spreadsheet

#98

This is really cool, but I don't think this is very useful. In my opinion: if you can use vim, you can probably code, or at least figure it out without too much trouble. If you can code, then you don't need a spreadsheet. You can just write a program to crunch the numbers, or produce a report etc. Excel is so popular, because it is a way for non-coders to crunch a bunch of numbers in a relatively easy way. And the be…

That's wrong in more than one way IMO. While vi might be a code editor first and foremost, not all vi users are coders. There are copy writers, academic and literature, having a need for fast and focussed touch typing (George R. R. Martin comes to mind as prominent WordStar user). The entire point of SGML/XML/HTML markup is to be able to create rich text documents without binary formats and special editors; this is a…

I don't disagree with your first paragraph, but I don't think it is relevant to what I was saying.

> Conversely, even if you are a coder, classic spreadsheets are extremely useful for any type of ad-hoc reproducible calculation

Again, I still feel like code is the ideal solution to "ad-hoc reproducible calculations"

> the point is that you can cross-reference cell values and copy/paste with relative cell positions to create large calculation tables/matrices, then update base values and perform "what-if" analyses, etc. etc.

I still don't see how you can't do that with code, nor what the spreadsheet is doing that code can't.

> I've used it for all kinds of reports apart from financials (benchmarks, construction/project planning, even a Tic Tac Toe game in school out of boredom).

Sure. It has been proven that excel is Turing complete. But I'd rather use a programming language (a tool that was literally designed for the purpose of writing code), than a clunky spreadsheet. Both can get the job done, I never denied that. But I still don't see the value that the spreadsheet brings over custom code written to solve the exact same problem.

Re: SCIM: Ncurses based, Vim-like spreadsheet

#99
post #89

This is really cool, but I don't think this is very useful. In my opinion: if you can use vim, you can probably code, or at least figure it out without too much trouble. If you can code, then you don't need a spreadsheet. You can just write a program to crunch the numbers, or produce a report etc. Excel is so popular, because it is a way for non-coders to crunch a bunch of numbers in a relatively easy way. And the be…

I am a counter example to your assessment. I can definetly code, but I wip up spreadsheets often. > If there is a use case for spreadsheets that is not better served by some real code, I'm interested to hear what it is. Sharing information with non-coders could be an obvious one. I could have done a database with my wife's sewing patterns collection, of which she has ~300. Instead, I did a spreadsheet in google docs,…

> Sharing information with non-coders could be an obvious one.

You can do the exact same thing with code. You can still output reports and diagrams, and literally anything the "customer/user" wants.

> I could have done a database with my wife's sewing patterns collection...

Your example is a good one. I didn't think of images.

> It was done in 2-3 hours, and she got exactly what she wanted.

Fair enough. A spreadsheet was probably the right tool for the job in this case. But if she ever wanted more features, and the complexity increased, I don't know if it still would be.

> I worked in a place where both the input and output was spreadsheets, and the users were spreadsheet users.

Okay, but should they have been? Would custom software not have been the better solution?

> a lot of the business logic (e.g. initial data validation, final presentation of the results) lived on the spreadsheets themselves.

When I think of "business logic", "data validation", and "final presentation", a spreadsheet is one of the last tools I'd reach for.

> Another interesting one is data-to-visual time. Unless you happen to be proficient in a particular area of programming (e.g. front programming with proficiency in something like D3, or R programmer) getting decent graphs out of data is a chore when going the programming route. With spreadsheets, you put the columns and get the graphs essentially for free.

I also disagree with this. I am very much a back-end developer. But using something like GNUplot or a library like matplotlib is pretty easy for outputting a nice looking graph from tabular data.

> To me spreadsheets are just another tool in the toolbox; they are appropriate for some tasks. They can definitely be misused and abused. Knowing which occasion is which is where experience comes in.

I agree with this. But I guess the difference is I can think of almost no circumstances where it's the better tool for a coder.

Re: SCIM: Ncurses based, Vim-like spreadsheet

#100

This is really cool, but I don't think this is very useful. In my opinion: if you can use vim, you can probably code, or at least figure it out without too much trouble. If you can code, then you don't need a spreadsheet. You can just write a program to crunch the numbers, or produce a report etc. Excel is so popular, because it is a way for non-coders to crunch a bunch of numbers in a relatively easy way. And the be…

"If the only tool you have is a hammer, it is tempting to treat everything as if it were a nail." [1]

While you can solve a lot of problems with code, code might not be the best way to solve some problems.

I want to type in some data, mix it up, explore, maybe make a quick graph, get some stats, decide if I need to make more calculations. By the time you decide on what tools to use and run your pip install or whatever, I'd be long done.

Conversely, I have seen spreadsheets used for a lot of things that they shouldn't be.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_the_instrument

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