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Working Title (Insurance)

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Re: Working Title (Insurance)

#91

Post by throw0101b »

gumby wrote: post #69

The last time I bought a house (this was in California) I read the title insurance policy (as the author says, it's short). Turns out it protects my claim in perpetuity meaning that when I sell the property I am still covered against any claims later brought by the buyer or their insurance company. Obviously therefore I don't need the insurance: in the very unlikely case title might be challenged I can always just su…

> Obviously therefore I don't need the insurance: in the very unlikely case title might be challenged I can always just sue the policy of the (now deceased) people who sold the house to me.

Title insurance, at least in Canada, also protects against future actions, and not just past ones:

* If someone manages to do some shenanigans and convinces someone that they own your property, and gets a second mortgage/HELOC on it, and then not pay it back, which causes the mortgage/HELOC company to put a lien on it, title insurance protects against that.

* If someone manages to sell your house to a person who then shows up at your front door on the "closing day", expecting to get inside, title insurance protects against that.

The above can happen even though you own things properly, and got them properly from the previous owners.

Occurrences in Canada:

* https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/prevent-title-insuran...

* https://www.mannlawyers.com/resources/a-review-of-title-insu...

Re: Working Title (Insurance)

#92

Post by SkyPuncher »

Scubabear68 wrote: post #89
SkyPuncher wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The tax stuff is all public record - easily verifiable. Deaths are also generally publicly verifiable. The rest of the stuff would essentially require intentional fraud by the seller. You’d be able to recoup most of those costs via court. Annoying for a private individual, but I tolerable as part of a portfolio. I’ll be real, you can pretty quickly tell the type of person you’re dealing with in a home sale. The peopl…

“Public record”. Yes. Now tell me how you find the public record. When much of it is not on the internet?

Most municipalities now have online records as part of their recording keeping system. This includes all of the tax information about a property. Might even include records of various permits.

If they’re not online, then they should have records in the municipal or county office. Might be a small fee to pull them, but they’ll have them.

If they don’t have records, then you may want title insurance.

Re: Working Title (Insurance)

#93

Post by Scubabear68 »

SkyPuncher wrote: post #92
Scubabear68 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Public record”. Yes. Now tell me how you find the public record. When much of it is not on the internet?

Most municipalities now have online records as part of their recording keeping system. This includes all of the tax information about a property. Might even include records of various permits. If they’re not online, then they should have records in the municipal or county office. Might be a small fee to pull them, but they’ll have them. If they don’t have records, then you may want title insurance.

“Most”? Citation please.

I reality the dozens of Counties and hundreds of municipalities in just NJ are all different. Some online. Some not. Some online but with enormous time lag. Differing systems with different data. My township and a few dozen others were all coveted by a tax assessor who had an abomination of a Flash based web site that degraded to the devil’s own JavaScript when Flash not available.

Then you need to know the County system. And state system.

Then get into the courts. Court eFiling and search capabilities vary wildly.

In my town’s case you would need to do several on-site searches plus a few Internet based ones to do a proper title search.

Re: Working Title (Insurance)

#94

Post by SkyPuncher »

Scubabear68 wrote: post #93
SkyPuncher wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most municipalities now have online records as part of their recording keeping system. This includes all of the tax information about a property. Might even include records of various permits. If they’re not online, then they should have records in the municipal or county office. Might be a small fee to pull them, but they’ll have them. If they don’t have records, then you may want title insurance.

“Most”? Citation please. I reality the dozens of Counties and hundreds of municipalities in just NJ are all different. Some online. Some not. Some online but with enormous time lag. Differing systems with different data. My township and a few dozen others were all coveted by a tax assessor who had an abomination of a Flash based web site that degraded to the devil’s own JavaScript when Flash not available. Then you n…

> “Most”? Citation please.

Both places I've purchased from have utilized https://www.bsasoftware.com/. The municipal directory is here: https://bsaonline.com/MunicipalDirectory. In my current state 75% of municipalities are covered by BSA.

In my prior state, many counties used Ascent Land Records Suite

This site is essentially a search engine for Municipal data: https://www.countyoffice.org/

------

* Alcova, Wyoming (pop 34) - Covered

* Atlantic City, New Jersey - Links out to Board of Taxation, which has this search tool: https://www.taxdatahub.com/622e0489f94ca0ce44f394e3/Atlantic

* I could go on and on.

Reality is municipalities need to manage this data. These online portals are just a side-feature of municipalities needing to manage their tax base.

Re: Working Title (Insurance)

#95

Post by [deleted] »

Scubabear68 wrote: post #88
anonfordays wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What if the latest owner has a contractor’s lien on the house for an unpaid bill? Not covered by title insurance. >Or if they are beyond on their property taxes? Specifically not covered by title insurance. >Or going through a messy divorce? Not covered by title insurance, nor would this scenario matter since the owners are known. >Or get an unexpected large medical bill that finalizes as a financial judgement again…

None of what you state is accurate. What the title -search- will do is show you all of these cases which need to be cleared before insurance is issued. Title insurance is not about the insurance, it’s about the scan.

[deleted]

Re: Working Title (Insurance)

#96

Post by anonfordays »

Scubabear68 wrote: post #88
anonfordays wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What if the latest owner has a contractor’s lien on the house for an unpaid bill? Not covered by title insurance. >Or if they are beyond on their property taxes? Specifically not covered by title insurance. >Or going through a messy divorce? Not covered by title insurance, nor would this scenario matter since the owners are known. >Or get an unexpected large medical bill that finalizes as a financial judgement again…

None of what you state is accurate. What the title -search- will do is show you all of these cases which need to be cleared before insurance is issued. Title insurance is not about the insurance, it’s about the scan.

>None of what you state is accurate.

Everything I stated is accurate.

>What the title -search- will do is show you all of these cases which need to be cleared before insurance is issued.

No, because title insurance doesn't cover some of those things to begin with so title insurance companies and banks issuing loans couldn't care less.

>Title insurance is not about the insurance, it’s about the scan.

Yes, the scan they farm out to small software companies that scrape public records and return an "all good" if nothing shows up. This query is usually done by a teenager or early twenty-something in a call center with zero experience, just data entry.

Re: Working Title (Insurance)

#97

Post by hiatus »

hammock wrote: post #71

As someone who is in the process of buying a house right now.. can someone give the TLDR of what I can actually do? Refuse the title insurance? Also the bit about land trust.. does this impact my ability to be underwritten for a mortgage?

I don't think any lender would allow you to forgo a title search for a mortgaged property.

Re: Working Title (Insurance)

#98

Post by i_am_proteus »

Scubabear68 wrote: post #47
i_am_proteus wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The nature of the scam is not from title insurance being unnecessary, but title insurance not being purchased on an open market like other insurance products. It's added in to the contract, with financial benefit to the real estate agent, and not discussed. The author's point about real estate being one-shot for the buyer and seller is spot-on.

I disagree. Title insurance requires highly localized specialty agents from the municipality up to the county to the State to Federal. The rules in Hunterdon County, NJ are completely different from Detroit, MI and are different from Ossining, NY. If you paid a guy in CA to run a title search in Hunterdon County, you’d be in a world of hurt. Because most of our records are at various Hall of Records. Even when comput…

What you say is true, but does not address the possibility of an open market for such local agents, rather than the buyer simply accepting the realtor's recommendation in the overwhelming majority of cases.
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