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Notes on Tajikistan

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Re: Notes on Tajikistan

#91

Post by 0xdde »

protomolecule wrote: post #67
rvense wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The people are friendly and welcoming, and the scenery is amazing. As a tourist, I don't much mind paying a few bribes to policemen (who barely get paid a wage), and I can stand to keep my mouth shut about their president when I'm there (even though he's obviously a bastard). But it's painful to think what it must be like to live there and have nowhere else to go.

[flagged]

From the post:

> In 2014, Tajikistan was the most-remittance based economy on earth, amounting to almost half of its GDP. The countryside is dotted with half-finished concrete homes which I was told were the long-term retirement plans of Tajiks working abroad; they build their structures for a few months each year over many years or decades using trickles of funds earned from abroad. When the structures are finished, they prepare them to be their permanent homes once they retire from migrant work.

They aren't settling out of the country permanently and I doubt the quality of life as a migrant worker in Russia is spectacular.

Re: Notes on Tajikistan

#92

Post by surfingdino »

mkoubaa wrote: post #77
jl6 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Suppressed” would be more extremism. “Kept in check”? Yeah, that’s probably a good treatment for any religion.

Keeping religions in check as such is incompatible with liberalism. Secular societies need to be maintained, but antagonizing religious people with phrases like that is not how.

On the flip side, religions are incompatible with liberalism so there's constant tension.

Re: Notes on Tajikistan

#93

Post by ddulaney »

protomolecule wrote: post #67
rvense wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The people are friendly and welcoming, and the scenery is amazing. As a tourist, I don't much mind paying a few bribes to policemen (who barely get paid a wage), and I can stand to keep my mouth shut about their president when I'm there (even though he's obviously a bastard). But it's painful to think what it must be like to live there and have nowhere else to go.

[flagged]

And the people who are left are the ones who cannot leave.

This is a pretty common pattern: there's a portion of the population that is mobile and can freely move around, and the rest of the population is stuck in place for one reason or another. When Venezuela went through its instability a couple years ago, about 20-30% of the population left [0]. Syria had 30-40% leave [1]. Ukraine had about 15% leave the country, but more were displaced from the warzone as internal refugees.

So when you say that "about one-quarter of Tajikistan's entire population" went to Russia for work, that suggests that economic conditions are at the same general class as 2018 Venezuela or 2012 Syria, where everybody who easily can move has moved. The people that are left really do have nowhere else to go.

[0]: https://www.iom.int/venezuelan-refugee-and-migrant-crisis [1]: https://www.unrefugees.org/news/syria-refugee-crisis-explain...

Re: Notes on Tajikistan

#94

Post by protomolecule »

0xdde wrote: post #91
protomolecule wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

From the post: > In 2014, Tajikistan was the most-remittance based economy on earth, amounting to almost half of its GDP. The countryside is dotted with half-finished concrete homes which I was told were the long-term retirement plans of Tajiks working abroad; they build their structures for a few months each year over many years or decades using trickles of funds earned from abroad. When the structures are finished,…

They are.

"174,000 Tajiks became citizens of Russia in 2022, up from 104,000 the year before." [0]

That's 1.5% of Tajikistan's population in a single year. We are not building walls, you know.

[0] https://eurasianet.org/number-of-tajiks-seeking-to-get-russi...

Re: Notes on Tajikistan

#95

Post by thriftwy »

justsomehnguy wrote: post #68

> Sadly, the Dushanbe flagpole lost its status as the world’s tallest in 2014, only three years after its construction, to the Jeddah Flagpole in Saudi Arabia, which I have already seen without knowing its illustrious status in the world flagpole standings: > I have to admit that I find it kind of funny that Tajikistan spent $3.5 million to win an extremely petty international prestige project contest, and then it lo…

> and Russia slid into second place

I also struggled there, perhaps that's the wording for Russia doing some flagpoling without claiming 1st place at any point of time.

There's three awfully huge flag poles in St. Petersburg erected last year, perhaps these are the culprits of that sentence. For the curious, these exhibit Emperors' flag, Soviet hammer-sickled and Russian tricolor.

Re: Notes on Tajikistan

#96

Post by layer8 »

wbl wrote: post #65

So snow at 13,000 feet in the summer, deep inland. How has there not been attempts to develop this for alpine sports? The quality of the snowfall plus the terrain seems made for it.

As mentioned towards the end of TFA, there is a ski resort: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safed_Dara

Re: Notes on Tajikistan

#97

Post by protomolecule »

ddulaney wrote: post #93
protomolecule wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

And the people who are left are the ones who cannot leave. This is a pretty common pattern: there's a portion of the population that is mobile and can freely move around, and the rest of the population is stuck in place for one reason or another. When Venezuela went through its instability a couple years ago, about 20-30% of the population left [0]. Syria had 30-40% leave [1]. Ukraine had about 15% leave the country,…

Ones who stayed likely to have relatives who moved to work in Russia and are sending money back.

Re: Notes on Tajikistan

#98

Post by mkoubaa »

inglor_cz wrote: post #88
mkoubaa wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Islamic law is understood by Muslims to be applied only in an Islamic state. In a secular state, the consensus understanding by Muslims is that the secular law is to be followed. A secular state need not suppress Islam

"A secular state need not suppress Islam" What about a secular state that doesn't want to become an Islamic state, but has a significant minority that has the opposite wish? AFAIK this is the most important common political problem across the Islamic world. Many organizations such as the Muslim Brotherhood want to Islamize their respective secular countries, some by peaceful means, others by violence. There has alrea…

A liberal secular state must respect the will of its citizenry, whatever it is. It must also suppress violent sedition with violence. Expressing that responsibility as suppressing religion per se is counterproductive

Re: Notes on Tajikistan

#99

Post by mkoubaa »

surfingdino wrote: post #92
mkoubaa wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keeping religions in check as such is incompatible with liberalism. Secular societies need to be maintained, but antagonizing religious people with phrases like that is not how.

On the flip side, religions are incompatible with liberalism so there's constant tension.

The bedrock of liberalism is religious freedom

Re: Notes on Tajikistan

#100

Post by mkoubaa »

protomolecule wrote: post #86
mkoubaa wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I sometimes even have faith in democracy, believe it or not.

Have you heard of Christian extremists in the USSR which is known for suppressing religion? Exactly. Likewise Islam in Tatarstan is completely benign.

The US cold war strategy of supporting Islamic extremism in the USSR is well documented. I think the reading of history that you are suggesting is naive
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