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Swapping GNU coreutils for uutils coreutils on Gentoo Linux

joshmcguigan.com

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Re: Swapping GNU coreutils for uutils coreutils on Gentoo Linux

#91

Post by nubinetwork »

Jach wrote: post #75
nubinetwork wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can think of a few off the top of my head... - broken shell scripts that are hardcoded to "/bin/bash" rather than "/usr/bin/env bash" (this might work for a while, but what happens when they remove the symlink?) - broken compiles because "/lib" and "/lib64" no longer exist, because of the lack of testing prior to making the change on behalf of users - broken boots because initramfs (dracut/etc) isn't structured cor…

Gentoo doesn't do this crap every 3 weeks, come on. I agree in the sense that I didn't want to have this choice thrust upon me, much like many other choices, but Gentoo has always been good about supporting different choices. My system is still systemd-free, for instance, and I'm rocking MATE. I read the news item, upgraded my profile to the non-merged next version now that I have to make a choice of merged or not, a…

They broke dracut roughly a month ago...

A week before that, they upgraded python without bumping all the python packages (kicad comes to mind, edit: ansible deps are frequently broken).

In March, profile 23 wants you to remove your CHOST, which sounds like a good way to break systems, thankfully you can ignore them and keep it set.

Back in February they broke something tied to wine/mono/dotnet without testing it.

Back in January they pretty much made split usr users require an initramfs (I was already using one but I digress).

I'm sure there were some more recent ones, but they like to remove the "news" messages quite frequently and I'm too lazy to dig through git logs.

Re: Swapping GNU coreutils for uutils coreutils on Gentoo Linux

#92

Post by DeathArrow »

lelanthran wrote: post #71
colordrops wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's arguable that macOS going Unix had a halo effect that did more for Linux and open source than if they stayed on a completely propietary stack. There is a ton of cross pollination between mac and Linux software, at least on the command line.

> It's arguable that macOS going Unix had a halo effect that did more for Linux and open source than if they stayed on a completely propietary stack. But that's not relevant to the parent's point, which is "If all open source, such as Linux, was BSD licensed, then only proprietary unixes would be common", which I happen to agree with. Linux would have been further behind because all the proprietary unixes could take…

>and all those thousands of full-time employees working on Linux would have created value for the shareholders of their employers, not value for the Linux users (like they currently do now)

But aren't the biggest Linux users companies? They use Linux for their data centers, for the mobile phones they sell.

Re: Swapping GNU coreutils for uutils coreutils on Gentoo Linux

#93

Post by globular-toast »

timschmidt wrote: post #89
lelanthran wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, I don't really want to do a clause-by-clause, point/counterpoint "Chapter And Verse Citations" argument.[1] It's why I focus on the goals - they're clear and well-understood. And, to be clear, I was mostly on the fence about this (my open-source projects tend to be a mix of BSD/MIT and GPL) since around 1995. For my FLOSS experiments/projects, I'd pick a license based on the goal of the project: Popular…

> Compare with Linux, which was adopted extensively by corporations, and forced to give back. I don't think Linux's success has as much to do with license as it has to do with Linus Torvalds. Very few developers can work on one project for 30 years straight making respectable engineering decisions for the entire run. And even fewer delegate well. Both of which Linus seems to have managed. If anything, corporations se…

Linus himself has said licensing Linux under the GPL was one of the best things he did. He's great, but to achieve what Linux is today he'd need to have made himself a couple orders of magnitude bigger. Linus also acknowledges the "genius is one percent inspiration, 99 percent perspiration" thing. And this coming from someone not renowned for being particularly humble.

The folks you've worked with are looking for something they can take without giving back. It's as simple as that really. Either that or they just don't like the GPL for entirely irrational reasons, which is all too common.

GPL is like "you can do whatever you like, except preventing others from doing what they like". Permissive zealots are like "boo! That's restrictive! I should be allowed to do anything I like!" Beats me why any thinking person would want a world like that.

Re: Swapping GNU coreutils for uutils coreutils on Gentoo Linux

#94

Post by timschmidt »

globular-toast wrote: post #93
timschmidt wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Compare with Linux, which was adopted extensively by corporations, and forced to give back. I don't think Linux's success has as much to do with license as it has to do with Linus Torvalds. Very few developers can work on one project for 30 years straight making respectable engineering decisions for the entire run. And even fewer delegate well. Both of which Linus seems to have managed. If anything, corporations se…

Linus himself has said licensing Linux under the GPL was one of the best things he did. He's great, but to achieve what Linux is today he'd need to have made himself a couple orders of magnitude bigger. Linus also acknowledges the "genius is one percent inspiration, 99 percent perspiration" thing. And this coming from someone not renowned for being particularly humble. The folks you've worked with are looking for som…

> The folks you've worked with are looking for something they can take without giving back.

I think if you're going to make an accusation like that, the only morally sound way to do it is to that person's face. Since you haven't done that, I'll disregard what you've said. As should others.

> GPL is like

You've mistaken me for someone arguing against the GPL. I love all the GPL'd software I use daily. Especially the ones I wrote.

These days I enjoy working with Rust in part because of the language and community, and in part because I get to choose the terms I license the resulting code under. The folks who write me paychecks appreciate it too.

I wish you luck in your advocacy efforts.

Re: Swapping GNU coreutils for uutils coreutils on Gentoo Linux

#95

Post by nicman23 »

timschmidt wrote: post #87
nicman23 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

tell that to ie playstation users that basically use bsd and cannot use the computation of their device for nothing that sony does not permit. very freedom

Xbox, Nintendo's various consoles, and Sony's are all DRM'd to hell and back. If BSD wasn't available under terms Sony liked, they'd be using QNX or something more obscure and just as inaccessible to their users. For better or worse, all the big console manufacturers see their ability to lock down their platform as vital to their development and business strategies. Vital to their ability to charge $60 for a few giga…

i mean that is ok but i do not want them using open source commons without any contribution. it is not a logic thing. i just hate oss being basically abused in that way

Re: Swapping GNU coreutils for uutils coreutils on Gentoo Linux

#96

Post by happymellon »

pjmlp wrote: post #90
happymellon wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know who would argue that. There was a lot of Unix already, and Linux ate it's lunch by being a simple recompile away. MacOS does a lot to try and hide that it's a Unix. > There is a ton of cross pollination between mac and Linux software Do we have any good examples, because Apple spends a lot of effort breaking cross platform compatibility? > at least on the command line. There is a lot of Linux command lin…

Apple does a good job staying up to date with UNIX standards, it is the devs that live in GNU land that get surprised. https://www.opengroup.org/openbrand/register/

I'm not sure who you are talking to, I didn't say anything about Apple not keeping up with Unix standards.

Re: Swapping GNU coreutils for uutils coreutils on Gentoo Linux

#97

Post by account42 »

M95D wrote: post #48

> Instead of modifying all the packages that depend on GNU coreutils (known as the package sys-apps/coreutils in Gentoo), I modified the GNU coreutils package to instead install uutils coreutils. That's not the way to do it (in Gentoo). He should have added coreutils to /etc/portage/profile/package.provided. Portage would then assume the package is installed even if it's not. This is used to install self-built binari…

Using package.provided for this is as much of a hack as modifying the coreutils package.

Re: Swapping GNU coreutils for uutils coreutils on Gentoo Linux

#98

Post by timschmidt »

nicman23 wrote: post #95
timschmidt wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Xbox, Nintendo's various consoles, and Sony's are all DRM'd to hell and back. If BSD wasn't available under terms Sony liked, they'd be using QNX or something more obscure and just as inaccessible to their users. For better or worse, all the big console manufacturers see their ability to lock down their platform as vital to their development and business strategies. Vital to their ability to charge $60 for a few giga…

i mean that is ok but i do not want them using open source commons without any contribution. it is not a logic thing. i just hate oss being basically abused in that way

I think it's a mistake to see it as abuse. They are using the software under the terms it was licensed to them by the developers. So no abuse has happened. Doubtless they have made contributions to that software in the process as well.

Would I prefer every computer be open to general purpose computing, and infinitely hackable by it's owner? Sure. But I also respect that they have reasons not to take that route. And as consoles and PCs converge, there are fewer and fewer reasons for me to be upset about one manufacturer's choices. I voted with my dollars and bought a Steam Deck. I think the preservation of culture is a much stronger argument for breaking console DRM and emulation.

Re: Swapping GNU coreutils for uutils coreutils on Gentoo Linux

#99

Post by pjmlp »

happymellon wrote: post #96
pjmlp wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple does a good job staying up to date with UNIX standards, it is the devs that live in GNU land that get surprised. https://www.opengroup.org/openbrand/register/

I'm not sure who you are talking to, I didn't say anything about Apple not keeping up with Unix standards.

>...Apple spends a lot of effort breaking cross platform compatibility?

Re: Swapping GNU coreutils for uutils coreutils on Gentoo Linux

#100

Post by nhellman »

nubinetwork wrote: post #3

> This Gentoo setup has /bin, /sbin, /usr/bin, and /usr/sbin all merged. I hope this isn't going to be the norm in the future, but Gentoo has been making my life difficult for years as it is... it's as if the developers don't test or use what they are forcing on everyone.

This is not forced by Gentoo. My Gentoo installs have separate bin directories which is what I got by default.
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