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Are animals conscious? New research

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Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#91

Post by epgui »

DangitBobby wrote: post #89
epgui wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's also sophisticated to have the ego required to believe you should inherently have dominion over the entire planet and all animals on it. Is that really "sophisticated", or is that just what happens when an entity outcompetes all others for resource utilization by chance (ie.: in the context of ecology / evolutionary pressure)? This is basically how cancer happens, and yet I wouldn't call cancer cells more soph…

Yeah, I think it's sophisticated. Our brains are hardwired for empathy, and people are able to mostly ignore their social/emotional programming through a system of beliefs that would be difficult to propagate without language.

You seem to think we're somehow "empathetic by default", but that's something I'd disagree with.

Our primal instinct is one of tribalism and auto-centrism, but over long periods of time we've developed a (fragile) capacity to empathize with 1) other people that look like us, and 2) other people that don't look like us, and 3) perhaps animals. But we didn't always have this capacity, and we see it break down all the time.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#92

Post by DangitBobby »

epgui wrote: post #91
DangitBobby wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I think it's sophisticated. Our brains are hardwired for empathy, and people are able to mostly ignore their social/emotional programming through a system of beliefs that would be difficult to propagate without language.

You seem to think we're somehow "empathetic by default", but that's something I'd disagree with. Our primal instinct is one of tribalism and auto-centrism, but over long periods of time we've developed a (fragile) capacity to empathize with 1) other people that look like us, and 2) other people that don't look like us, and 3) perhaps animals. But we didn't always have this capacity, and we see it break down all the t…

What makes you think we "didn't always have this capacity"? Or that other animals don't have it? We have it from a very young age, children like animals, want them as pets, and cry when they see them hurt or killed. We've had at the very least a desire to commune with animals for 100,000 years or we wouldn't have dogs in their current form.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#93

Post by brandall10 »

self_awareness wrote: post #41

Once I had a dog and I watched him as he slept. One minute, he suddenly started moving the tips of his paws as if he were running somewhere. A moment later, he began to move his jaw as if he started to eat something. Right after that, a bit more paw movement, and he began to smack his tongue as if he were drinking something. Then again, he started moving his paws as if he ran off somewhere. So: he ran to the bowl of…

When my late female pug was young she would regularly 'sleepwalk'. She'd stand up and start digging into the mattress for about 30 seconds, then collapse back to the bed and resume snoring. Almost every night for awhile, waking us up in the process.

Once I coo'ed to her while doing this and she snapped awake, jumped backwards a few inches with this freaked out look on her face.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#94

Post by epgui »

DangitBobby wrote: post #92
epgui wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to think we're somehow "empathetic by default", but that's something I'd disagree with. Our primal instinct is one of tribalism and auto-centrism, but over long periods of time we've developed a (fragile) capacity to empathize with 1) other people that look like us, and 2) other people that don't look like us, and 3) perhaps animals. But we didn't always have this capacity, and we see it break down all the t…

What makes you think we "didn't always have this capacity"? Or that other animals don't have it? We have it from a very young age, children like animals, want them as pets, and cry when they see them hurt or killed. We've had at the very least a desire to commune with animals for 100,000 years or we wouldn't have dogs in their current form.

I haven't claimed that animals don't have it.

In general, empathy can be either an evolved behaviour, a learned behaviour, or both.

In humans this is largely-but-probably-not-exclusively socialized behaviour. Most cases of (human and non-abused) feral children exhibit behaviour that is not particularly compatible with empathy.

I shared my rationale for why we "haven't always had this capacity" a few comments up this thread, and you seemed to agree with it before immediately making the contradicting statement.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#95

Post by robwwilliams »

lolinder wrote: post #66

> Attributing consciousness to animals based on their responses was seen as a cardinal sin. The argument went that projecting human traits, feelings, and behaviours onto animals had no scientific basis and there was no way of testing what goes on in animals’ minds. What's always been funny to me about the scientific approach to animal consciousness/emotions/empathy is that in a perfectly rational world the default as…

No, it has been controversial for at least one other major reason discussed in the BBC article and by Anil Seth—-the near equivalence made between language and consciousness that goes back to Descartes. Descartes viewed the body as machinery, the mind as imbued and linked in a nebulous way to the body, but distinct at some fundamental level.

This split enabled the behaviorist tradition to dominate animal psychology for much of the 20th century.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#96

Post by lolinder »

robwwilliams wrote: post #95
lolinder wrote: post #66

> Attributing consciousness to animals based on their responses was seen as a cardinal sin. The argument went that projecting human traits, feelings, and behaviours onto animals had no scientific basis and there was no way of testing what goes on in animals’ minds. What's always been funny to me about the scientific approach to animal consciousness/emotions/empathy is that in a perfectly rational world the default as…

No, it has been controversial for at least one other major reason discussed in the BBC article and by Anil Seth—-the near equivalence made between language and consciousness that goes back to Descartes. Descartes viewed the body as machinery, the mind as imbued and linked in a nebulous way to the body, but distinct at some fundamental level. This split enabled the behaviorist tradition to dominate animal psychology f…

But that reason relies on a presupposition that human language is categorically different than animal language, which is also a claim that relies on presupposing a categorical distinction which must be disproven, rather than starting from the assumption that human and animal communication exists along an evolutionary spectrum.

And how did we arrive at this categorical distinction becoming axiomatic? As you say, by way of Descartes, who was a devout Christian who famously tried to derive the existence of God from the fact of his own consciousness.

Far from being a separate and distinct reason for downplaying animal consciousness, my sense is that animal language is downplayed precisely because it would imply consciousness, and we're working within a system that axiomatically believes animals are not conscious.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#97

Post by panarky »

delecti wrote: post #51
epgui wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To prove this would require being able to very clearly define consciousness, but we know that consciousness is not “a thing”— it’s rather “a collection of things”, and it’s not either there or not; rather it’s largely a question of degree. And I don’t just mean this as inter-species variation either: even if we only look at humans, humans exhibit the whole spectrum and/or patchwork of states of consciousness, both de…

I can't help but believe that people who think animals aren't conscious are starting from that assumption. If you start from the belief that there's some inherent "human-ness" (soul, etc), then nothing you see will convince you that animals have it too.

Could you prove that another person is conscious? Could you prove that you are conscious?

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#98

Post by jamesmontalvo3 »

deanCommie wrote: post #78
lolinder wrote: post #66

> Attributing consciousness to animals based on their responses was seen as a cardinal sin. The argument went that projecting human traits, feelings, and behaviours onto animals had no scientific basis and there was no way of testing what goes on in animals’ minds. What's always been funny to me about the scientific approach to animal consciousness/emotions/empathy is that in a perfectly rational world the default as…

The challenge is that part of an advanced human society is creating black-and-white lines in structures to promote peace and prosperity. For example, everything we associate with the magical age of 18 years old. "Adulthood", sexual consent, voting, drinking, smoking, conscription all begin on an arbitrary day and we take no consideration of the reality of the maturity of the person. (Not to mention that "maturity" is…

> I am not convinced about the rest of the animal kingdom.

What about crows?

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#99

Post by klyrs »

kaycey2022 wrote: post #45
klyrs wrote: post #37

> Prof Chittka’s experiments showed that bees ... seemed to be able to play, rolling small wooden balls, which he says they appeared to enjoy as an activity. But can they understand the offside rule?

Neither do most people. Which implies ...

... we won't need to understand the rules, we'll just yell at the referees whether it's bees or humans handling the ball?

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#100

Post by jemmyw »

lolinder wrote: post #82
mgh2 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you sure that is not just mimicry of mechanisms left by evolution? Is like saying ChatGPT has conscience because it can talk or "think" like us...are we missing something here? I am not opposing your view, just trying to understand the logic - perplexed by downvotes on a simple question...

I'm not sure about the downvotes, I couldn't even downvote you if I wanted to because you replied to me. I'm operating on the assumption that evolution happened as Darwin described it. As another reply to you notes, darwinian evolution precludes sharp divides between species in favor of a gradual development of complexity over time. A believer in darwinian evolution should expect consciousness and emotions and other…

Not that I believe this, but there could be an intelligence cliff where you get to a certain level and suddenly consciousness and self awareness appear. That is a mechanism where gradual change could lead to stepped differences.
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