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Microsoft Bans Linux/Android Dual-Booting on Windows 8 ARM Devices

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Re: Microsoft Bans Linux/Android Dual-Booting on Windows 8 ARM Devices

#91

Post by dagw »

mhurron wrote: post #89
cryptoz wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the difference between tablets and laptops? I don't see any differences when it comes to the ability to dual boot. The ASUS Transformer line has been around for a while now, showing that the line between tablet and laptop is blurring. Also, Canonical/Ubuntu seems to be gunning for tablet market share in the future. Do you think they'll have their own hardware? I don't see any reason to separate out tablets and…

> What's the difference between tablets and laptops? Usage patterns. A laptop is just a mobile general purpose computer, to restrict it by restricting say it's OS, you have removed the general purpose nature of the device and this is a loss of functionality. A tablet on the other hand is an appliance. It has more in common with your toaster, microwave, refrigerator or your DVD player. It is intended to basically do o…

But what about the new line of hybrid devices that are showing up? If I add a touchscreen to a laptop and make the keyboard removable is it a tablet? If I add a keyboard to a tablet is it a laptop. The whole tablet is an appliance/laptop is a computer line or reasoning is flawed from the outset and the lines will only become more and more blurred with time.

Re: Microsoft Bans Linux/Android Dual-Booting on Windows 8 ARM Devices

#92

Post by keeperofdakeys »

slowpoke wrote: post #88
keeperofdakeys wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It should be noted Secure Boot is not a DRM device in itself, it merely allows you to enforce a chain of trust for an OS to boot. The OS still needs to provide DRM functions itself.

Secure Boot (on ARM) restricts my ability to run whatever the fuck I want on my device. I do not see how this is not Digital Restrictions Mismanagement.

DRM usually refers to mechanisms to digitaly manage rights of content, SecureBoot merely checks that a bootloader is signed by specific keys. Just ensuring people know what's what.

Re: Microsoft Bans Linux/Android Dual-Booting on Windows 8 ARM Devices

#93

Post by keeperofdakeys »

Hoff wrote: post #77

Please take a moment to reflect on the current situation before launching the "corporate overlord" and related snark. Many existing customers effectively do not own what they already have; their systems have been infested with malware and crapplications. Locked-down bootstraps are the least-bad of a very bad lot of approaches available for dealing with the changes in the user base, and with the increasingly less-expe…

I personally don't see many bootloader attacks these days. Consider that SecureBoot only protects from attacks like this, after bootstraping it is upto the OS to ensure security. So purely from this, I don't think the tradeoffs are worth it. Once you have infastructure like this, it isn't hard for it to be misused (even with good intentions).

Re: Microsoft Bans Linux/Android Dual-Booting on Windows 8 ARM Devices

#94

Post by tjoff »

jerf wrote: post #86
tjoff wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the nature of an android phone isn't a computer, it is an android device. To claim that the PS3 is a Cell-powered computer is about as helpful as claiming that my router is a arm-powered computer, it might be true but that doesn't mean that I can run linux on my router - yet I can run linux on an arm-powered computer. I'm not arguing that the intent of a thing is its identity - the manufacturers are, and if you…

Along with the other capable technical takedowns of your argument, might I just add that this is the road to technical serfdom. This is not something to be relaxed into, but to be vigorously fought.

So true. Only problem is that it isn't being fought - we consumers gladly pay for it.

So in all honestly, no matter how bad it sucks. We deserve it.

Re: Microsoft Bans Linux/Android Dual-Booting on Windows 8 ARM Devices

#95

Post by keeperofdakeys »

cryptoz wrote: post #53
protomyth wrote: post #52

I really don't care about the restrictions on tablets. I figure every OS will have a tablet or two available. What really bothers me is that ARM-based laptops come under this crud. I have really wanted a modern day replacement for the Psion. Something that gets great battery life and has a decent keyboard. I also want to run a BSD (probably Open), so that is really going to make it a pain.

What's the difference between tablets and laptops? I don't see any differences when it comes to the ability to dual boot. The ASUS Transformer line has been around for a while now, showing that the line between tablet and laptop is blurring. Also, Canonical/Ubuntu seems to be gunning for tablet market share in the future. Do you think they'll have their own hardware? I don't see any reason to separate out tablets and…

In some respects, laptops are the same as tablets. They serve a purpose, the hardware configuration is controlled by a single entity and they are relatively closed. Yet, you think they are different. The answer is that laptops have always been like they have, and tablets have generally always been in a closed state. There is nothing really 'unique' about a tablet that doesn't make it a general computing device, it just has a different input system.

Now personally I love general purpose hardware, because purposes change, and the software on the device should be able to change with it. I don't think a laptop would be viable for me unless I could change the software. You might bring up phones, but there is a reason for that. They used to be embedded systems, designed for a single purpose (and usable only for that purpose). These days they are general purpose devices that also make phone calls (even if this single purpose drives many design decisions).

I've also done crazy things like install an alternate firmware on my router, why, because it gave me more features. This is why I like general purpose devices, and my freedom to change their software to suit my the specific purposes I want. Tablets aren't fundamentally different from a computer, they just have a different skin.

Re: Microsoft Bans Linux/Android Dual-Booting on Windows 8 ARM Devices

#96

Post by tjoff »

nitrogen wrote: post #82
tjoff wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the nature of an android phone isn't a computer, it is an android device. To claim that the PS3 is a Cell-powered computer is about as helpful as claiming that my router is a arm-powered computer, it might be true but that doesn't mean that I can run linux on my router - yet I can run linux on an arm-powered computer. I'm not arguing that the intent of a thing is its identity - the manufacturers are, and if you…

"Android device" isn't a physical thing. It's an idea, a particular (but not the only) application of a set of physical things. Physical things include CPUs, RAM, PCBs, displays, etc. The whole is exactly the sum of its parts. Let's see what's in a computer: CPU, RAM, storage, input, output, software. What's in a smartphone? CPU, RAM, storage, input, output, software. Absent manufacturer lockdown or inane laws like t…

An Android device most certainly is a physical thing. If not, why isn't the CPU just an idea? A particular application of a set of physical things. Physical things include silicon etc.

Is a car a physical thing?

Yes, you can call it a computer but you could also call it a heap of atoms - both statements are true, but they are pretty much both just as useless to describe what an android device really is.

Again, my clock, my fridge and my washing machine has a CPU, RAM, storage, input, output and software. By the same argument they are literally and physically the same thing in a different package - which of course is true, but also so very very wrong.

Re: Microsoft Bans Linux/Android Dual-Booting on Windows 8 ARM Devices

#97

Post by brudgers »

recoiledsnake wrote: post #80
tehwalrus wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not true in the same way about apple's ARM devices either. Microsoft's actions control the hardware's boot code, which (I am assuming) cannot be flashed easily as it's not generic between devices. Apple's control over iPhones is bypass-able via jailbreaking (I've seen iPhones that dual boot android, which wouldn't be possible with a similar restriction.) Apple make this stuff hard and fiddly (and, on iOS devices…

>Apple's control over iPhones is bypass-able via jailbreaking (I've seen iPhones that dual boot android, which wouldn't be possible with a similar restriction.) Is there really a way to install Android on iPhone 4/4S or the iPad? Then why aren't a whole bunch of people doing it? Because no one really cares about dual booting a personal device and the associated headaches with keeping things in sync?

I suspect that differences in the way operating systems format and read persistent storage create some interesting technical challenges for a dual boot device.

Re: Microsoft Bans Linux/Android Dual-Booting on Windows 8 ARM Devices

#98

Post by slowpoke »

keeperofdakeys wrote: post #92
slowpoke wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Secure Boot (on ARM) restricts my ability to run whatever the fuck I want on my device. I do not see how this is not Digital Restrictions Mismanagement.

DRM usually refers to mechanisms to digitaly manage rights of content, SecureBoot merely checks that a bootloader is signed by specific keys. Just ensuring people know what's what.

My point is that it's one and the same. You're making distinctions where there are none. Software which I run on my device is content, too. Denying me the right to change or modify that content is the very definition of DRM.

Re: Microsoft Bans Linux/Android Dual-Booting on Windows 8 ARM Devices

#100

Post by darkarmani »

Hoff wrote: post #77

Please take a moment to reflect on the current situation before launching the "corporate overlord" and related snark. Many existing customers effectively do not own what they already have; their systems have been infested with malware and crapplications. Locked-down bootstraps are the least-bad of a very bad lot of approaches available for dealing with the changes in the user base, and with the increasingly less-expe…

What proportion of attacks are stopped by securing the boot loader like 2%? Does anyone really think this will stop most malware?
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