Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

EU countries must implement right to repair laws within two years

consilium.europa.eu

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

91–100 of 120 posts

Re: EU countries must implement right to repair laws within two years

#91

Post by Jnr »

8372049 wrote: post #51
mytailorisrich wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have the right to repair what you own. This is aimed at preventing companies from preventing you from doing so. Parts are already available in many cases and no-one prevents you from sourcing them. But in reality most people don't do that and don't want to do that. Either they call a repairman or they buy a new appliance, and this law won't change any of that.

> You have the right to repair what you own. Based on what? Specifically, it's not listed in Article 17 of the Charter of Fundamental Rights [0] > This is aimed at preventing companies from preventing you from doing so. This is aimed at preventing companies from preventing professional repair services from doing so. [0] https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CEL...

Based on the fact that you own that thing and you can do whatever you want with it.

The issue until now has been the availability of documentation (schematics, instructions, etc.). For example, in USA you can purchase Volvo service manual access as individual, but in EU it is not available at all.

Re: EU countries must implement right to repair laws within two years

#92

Post by hollow-moe »

theshrike79 wrote: post #74
hollow-moe wrote: post #3

Does this bill includes an obligation for manufacturers to sell spare parts at a reasonable price ? Or has clauses against malicious compliance like apple did with the infamous military crates ?

The "Military Crates" (100% off the shelf Pelican cases used to transport fragile equipment across the world) contain very specific gear that's simple enough for anyone to use as long as they follow the instructions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdYzVaC6HSQ It's not like you can reliably tell someone to "just use your hair dryer to loosen the adhesive" and not expect huge amounts of breakage. The devices in the ki…

Thanks for the clarification, I didn't have the correct name for those. Still, they should design their devices to not require factory tools to be used by the average joe just to replace a part.

Re: EU countries must implement right to repair laws within two years

#93

Post by tveyben »

londons_explore wrote: post #15
lost_womble wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Professional repairs are the ones lobbying for right to repair laws? Do you have proof for this outlandish claim?

The most vocal person behind the right to repair movement: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Npd_xDuNi9k Oh, and he runs a professional repair shop...

Then why is he sharing so many videos teaching/demonstration/commenting about how to fix Mac’s so you can do it yourself…?

Re: EU countries must implement right to repair laws within two years

#94

Post by [deleted] »

lnsru wrote: post #30
flohofwoe wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Framework laptop seems to be a counter example to your theory, the company seems to be just under 50 people which isn't all that big even for a startup, and repairability is one of their main selling points.

May I ask you what this company has to do with EU? If you could open the website you would find this information: Company: Framework Computer Inc Headquarters Address: 447 Sutter St, PMB 135, San Francisco, CA, 94108-4618, United States

[deleted]

Re: EU countries must implement right to repair laws within two years

#95

Post by ckastner »

izacus wrote: post #59
ckastner wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why can't I as a consumer view a service manual and buy a part? Have you ever helped a family member with their computer problems, only to notice that they often start as something benign, and the mess you are dealing with is from the family member attempting to fix that benign problem themselves? Outside of tech, how many people do you know who actually read manuals instead of just going at it?

> Have you ever helped a family member with their computer problems, only to notice that they often start as something benign, and the mess you are dealing with is from the family member attempting to fix that benign problem themselves? No, not really. Why do you think this story is relevant here?

Because it suggests a possible explanation why non-skilled consumers were not the immediate concern of this legislation.

Re: EU countries must implement right to repair laws within two years

#96

Post by mytailorisrich »

8372049 wrote: post #51
mytailorisrich wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have the right to repair what you own. This is aimed at preventing companies from preventing you from doing so. Parts are already available in many cases and no-one prevents you from sourcing them. But in reality most people don't do that and don't want to do that. Either they call a repairman or they buy a new appliance, and this law won't change any of that.

> You have the right to repair what you own. Based on what? Specifically, it's not listed in Article 17 of the Charter of Fundamental Rights [0] > This is aimed at preventing companies from preventing you from doing so. This is aimed at preventing companies from preventing professional repair services from doing so. [0] https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CEL...

> Article 17

Right to property

1. Everyone has the right to own, use, dispose of and bequeath his or her lawfully acquired possessions. No one may be deprived of his or her possessions, except in the public interest and in the cases and under the conditions provided for by law, subject to fair compensation being paid in good time for their loss. The use of property may be regulated by law in so far as is necessary for the general interest.

You can do whatever you want with your propery, this is a fundamental and established right of private property.

> This is aimed at preventing companies from preventing professional repair services from doing so.

If repairmen are able to repair, you can, too. It is already by and large possible for many appliances. I have done it many times, there are websites where you can order many parts and even manuals (e.g. espares.co.uk in the UK).

The issue is one of competence and will to do it. It's utopian to think that most people want to repair their own appliances or are able to.

It's like for cars. In the (not so) 'olden' days you could buy detailed manuals and parts where available, including from junkyards. Cars were purely mechanical. And yet the vast majority of people were not touching them beyond checking the oil level...

Re: EU countries must implement right to repair laws within two years

#97

Post by mytailorisrich »

Jnr wrote: post #91
8372049 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You have the right to repair what you own. Based on what? Specifically, it's not listed in Article 17 of the Charter of Fundamental Rights [0] > This is aimed at preventing companies from preventing you from doing so. This is aimed at preventing companies from preventing professional repair services from doing so. [0] https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CEL...

Based on the fact that you own that thing and you can do whatever you want with it. The issue until now has been the availability of documentation (schematics, instructions, etc.). For example, in USA you can purchase Volvo service manual access as individual, but in EU it is not available at all.

Here in the UK manuals for most cars are available through Haynes.

For example Volvo XC60: https://haynes.com/en-gb/volvo/xc60/2018-20-diesel-449210

I had the one for my 2008 Ford Fiesta and it helped me doing some repairs myself.

Re: EU countries must implement right to repair laws within two years

#98

Post by londons_explore »

theshrike79 wrote: post #71
blensor wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saying Louis Rossmann is fighting for the right to repair while trying to keep individuals from repairing their own devices is like saying Linus Torvalds created Linux to keep people from getting the idea to build their own operating system. Rossmann is fighting the good fight and also often doing videos showing how a repair actually works. Most famously a video where he showed that a certain type of common Macbook s…

The stuff that Rossmann repairs are "simple" because he has the tools and expertise to do so. It's very much a "$1 for the screw and $999 to know where to put it" type of situation. Does everyone realistically expect Apple to have a Rossmann-level repair person[0] in every one of their 528 Apple Stores to do these "simple fixes" with professional gear. Or is it actually more economical for them to build the equipment…

Most companies do a simple board swap for the customer, but then send the faulty boards back to the factory to be 'refurbished' - ie. run through the automated test rig and check every function is fully working.

By doing that, an unnecessary board swap is 'free' to the manufacturer - which makes diagnosing problems in the store far easier - just keep swapping parts till the issue is resolved.

When those boards end up back at the factory, they'll pass the test immediately and be able to be sent right out again for another repair.

For boards that don't pass the test, sort them by the failure symptoms and suddenly repair becomes far easier - "these 50 need a new power supply IC, pay someone $25/hour on the rework station to do that, costing $3/board labour and $3/board in components".

Re: EU countries must implement right to repair laws within two years

#99

Post by Etherlord87 »

londons_explore wrote: post #15
lost_womble wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Professional repairs are the ones lobbying for right to repair laws? Do you have proof for this outlandish claim?

The most vocal person behind the right to repair movement: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Npd_xDuNi9k Oh, and he runs a professional repair shop...

Fair, that's one. You need one more to make it plural.

Re: EU countries must implement right to repair laws within two years

#100

Post by 8372049 »

impossiblefork wrote: post #83
8372049 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Article 16 says only They are referring to Article 16 of the Charter of Fundamental Rights in the union, not this directive. https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CEL...

Ah, but >The freedom to conduct a business in accordance with Union law and national laws and practices is recognised. doesn't feel like it goes very far either.

I am not a lawyer, and definitely not a EU law lawyer, but e.g. in the copyright law, it states that the right to dynamically reverse engineer a program can not be given up through agreement. I would presume that the above sentence about contractual freedom combined with that implies that you can give up the right to have something repaired through an agreement.
Post reply on HN