Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Scandal at America's top science fair

karlstack.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

91–100 of 229 posts

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#91

Post by cbanek »

uneekname wrote: post #10

I was a finalist at the 2017 ISEF and it was quite an experience. A lot of super smart kids there and we all had fun living it up in Los Angeles. There was a stark contrast between those of us who had designed our projects completely ourselves, and those who had significant mentors/lab affiliations. No hate to high schoolers getting valuable STEM experience at local universities, but Regeneron should do more to diffe…

I remember when I did science fair a long time ago and this was still true. I managed to get a few levels to the state science fair, but that was as far as I ever got. It was all about the best humidity conditions for popping popcorn with the fewest un-popped kernels and maximum volume.

Some of the other projects that I saw were just amazing. Even if the parents didn't help many of the top projects involved thousands of dollars of equipment that most students had no access to.

And no, other than maybe $100 from my parents, they didn't help at all.

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#92

Post by samaltmanfried »

anal_reactor wrote: post #73
tomcam wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There was a stark contrast between those of us who had designed our projects completely ourselves, and those who had significant mentors/lab affiliations. Said with kindness and discretion. Parental "help", e.g. doing most or all of the work for a science fair entry, is an open secret among Asian communities. It has been for decades. I know firsthand that many Chinese-born parents don't even view it as at all wrong…

Unfortunately, many cultures don't see honesty as a value on its own. In Polish there's a word "frajer" which is an offensive term for someone who got cheated or didn't take advantage of a situation. The logic is that, if the society as a whole is dishonest, then it doesn't make sense to be a martyr recognized by no-one, and it's better to make sure you take care of yourself first.

[dead]

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#93

Post by jjeaff »

EvgeniyZh wrote: post #80
WillPostForFood wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need lottery based admissions. Let schools set a minimum test score, and anyone over that goes into lottery for admissions. Kill off essays, extra curriculars, club sports, summer programs, AP tests, Legacy admits, early applications, and let kids have some life again.

Just make tests hard enough so that you wouldn't need lottery

any tests will always be gamed by those with the resources to game them. either ethically (through special tutors and private programs) or unethically (cheating).

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#94

Post by thriftwy »

CaliforniaKarl wrote: post #81
thriftwy wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The child is nothing to be blamed for, it is a 100% problem of the organizers. For a 17 years old, even throwing together such work is already an worthwhile result. Teens is a golden age of compilation and remixing.

> The child is nothing to be blamed for, it is a 100% problem of the organizers. I am surprised that the organizers did not catch this, though I don't know enough to know how much time the organizers had. > For a 17 years old, even throwing together such work is already an worthwhile result. Teens is a golden age of compilation and remixing. For kids, in general, if one kid makes a claim ("I made this," or "This game…

My point, if you can't get adult professionals with wages admit they fk'd up, there's zero and even negative expectations of unpaid teenager contestants.

And that's what I am seeing happening right now.

You have unacceptable amount of leniency towards organizers, in "don't know how much time did they have". They should've had enough to scrutinize their short list. Perhaps it all looks like the winning submission.

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#95

Post by jjeaff »

deely3 wrote: post #78
blackeyeblitzar wrote: post #9

Science fairs always have hints of fraud around them. Many of the children putting out incredibly advanced research, beyond their capacity, are benefiting from their parents’ expertise, or friends of family, or access to labs, and such. It’s not talked about much but has been an issue for decades. As a side note, the criticism around this incident seems to have some racial tones. It’s weird to see tweets referring to…

> Many of the children putting out incredibly advanced research, beyond their capacity, are benefiting from their parents’ expertise, or friends of family, or access to labs, and such. Do we have a solution for this, and do we need a solution? Lets go nuts, lets go hyperbolic: should we ban kids from learning from their parents?

they aren't necessarily learning anything from their parents. their parents are doing most of the work.

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#96

Post by refurb »

nsajko wrote: post #65

Source, "Open Letter to Regeneron ISEF": https://docs.google.com/document/d/1e4vjzp6JgClCFXkbNOweXZno...

Wow, the entire project was basically copy pasted from other work.

What gets me, is there are clear scientific errors (talking about RNA fragments but should have been protein fragments).

This would have been immediately caught by someone with a basic knowledge of the field.

How do they judge the projects if not having subject matter experts closely review them and the results?

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#97

Post by mihaaly »

> These actions, while serious, should not define Pai’s entire life

Too late for that. Very late. Unluckily his mind is set on pretending too much. Which is ubiquitous and actually encouraged in life to a great degree (not like this should be an excuse for adapting).

What is not late is to seek a different career in life. Be an influencer, praised youtuber or a political adviser perhaps, but the science world needs much different mindset. His reputation is annihilated by himself beyond repair anyway. The useful side of the story: be it a learning experience for the others.

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#98

Post by jszymborski »

neilv wrote: post #76
vsnf wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Parental "help", e.g. doing most or all of the work for a science fair entry, is an open secret among Asian communities. This has been a meme/running gag in countless sitcoms and Sunday morning newspaper comic strips for as long as I can remember. Not the Asian community part, just the 'parents actually doing the work' part. The joke is typically about overly competitive middle class suburban fathers juxtaposed aga…

The Cub Scout Pinewood Derby that I saw -- in which the kid is to carve a model car out of a block of wood at home, to race at an event -- they had wisely issued extra kits ahead of time, for those parents who would get a little too enthusiastic about helping Junior, and had separate races among the parents' cars. Of course, the stakes were much smaller than an award or school admission that potentially makes/breaks…

That's frankly an amazing way to stem the number of enthusiastic parents doing their kid's projects. I wouldn't have thought of it.

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#99

Post by [deleted] »

onetimeusename wrote: post #34
_lvbh wrote: post #24

One of the details that strike me is that the cheater comes from a fairly wealthy background and has no need for that prize money at all. They have much more to lose than gain and this doesn’t seem rational at all.

It's for university admissions. It's not that surprising. There's a lot of fraud in admissions. I've met students who have given TED talks on subjects they have no idea about, written science books with fake reviews on Amazon, etc. all for admissions.

[deleted]

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#100

Post by puzzledobserver »

cbanek wrote: post #91
uneekname wrote: post #10

I was a finalist at the 2017 ISEF and it was quite an experience. A lot of super smart kids there and we all had fun living it up in Los Angeles. There was a stark contrast between those of us who had designed our projects completely ourselves, and those who had significant mentors/lab affiliations. No hate to high schoolers getting valuable STEM experience at local universities, but Regeneron should do more to diffe…

I remember when I did science fair a long time ago and this was still true. I managed to get a few levels to the state science fair, but that was as far as I ever got. It was all about the best humidity conditions for popping popcorn with the fewest un-popped kernels and maximum volume. Some of the other projects that I saw were just amazing. Even if the parents didn't help many of the top projects involved thousands…

Understanding the effect of humidity on popcorn making sounds like a fascinating research project. Also one that I can honestly imagine a high school student undertaking. I would like to know how you controlled humidity, what your popcorn making apparatus was, what conclusions you drew, can it really make my popcorn better, so many questions.

It seems so sad that we're taking projects that would be real fun---like yours---and comparing them to projects that clearly required massive amounts of infrastructure and external expertise. Now, again, both kinds of projects have their place: one to let students do genuine science, and the other for students to get an exposure to university research labs.

Why again are we turning science fairs into competitions and handing out awards and using them to filter college admissions? How many science fair entries report on failed experiments or admit that they didn't obtain statistically significant results? The whole thing reeks of misplaced incentives.

Post reply on HN