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Discussion: Job seekers can't find a job and Employers can't find an employees

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Re: Discussion: Job seekers can't find a job and Employers can't find an employees

#91

Post by PaulRobinson »

duxup wrote: post #13

I don't understand the hiring people industry. The questions thrown at me are trivia, if I knew the answer, or not, it doesn't mean anything. People are looking for weird specifics for things that ... really don't need it. The job inevitably doesn't even rely on those specifics. I'll learn whatever anyone wants, I like doing that ... no honestly I do. Can I just talk to the folks I'll potentially be working with / fo…

Because it has been observed [1] that a lot of people turning up to coding interviews don't know much about coding.

I'm sure in the ML sector right now, it's hell. Seven figure salaries are going to get some optimistic over-reachers desperate to try and get in the door and BS their way through the first few months.

My own experience: I had a CEO and board member of the startup I was CTO'ing push a dev my way. "Brilliant", they said, "just really great attitude, check them out see if we can get them hired, fast". I was excited, and keen to meet them. Turns out their way to code was to find a library (this was a Ruby shop, so technically a gem), that did the thing needed, bolt it in using example code and ship it. "OK", I said, "but we're a startup trying to solve an optimisation problem in the logistics space. There is no gem. We're going to have to be smart and solve this ourselves by reading papers and experimenting and trying things out. How would you do that?". And I kid you not, the exact response was "If there isn't a gem, I don't think it's doable, or maybe we should wait until it's done".

When I told my CEO and board member that this great, exciting prospect they found couldn't code, they refused to believe me until I spelled it out really carefully: if we hired them, we'd have to train them to solve problems in code. Like, give them CS50 or something. Is that right for a senior engineer as 4th or 5th hire in a startup?

So now I ask some trivia for engineer roles. I dress it up a bit so as not to be patronising, but I kind of want to have a conversation about how they code, what they do, what their method and see if it rings true. On a lot of phone screens, it still just doesn't tally up.

[1] This is 2007, but I see no evidence of it having really changed much, TBH: https://blog.codinghorror.com/why-cant-programmers-program/

Re: Discussion: Job seekers can't find a job and Employers can't find an employees

#92

Post by jeltz »

ativzzz wrote: post #82
setgree wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, the skill of being trainable/educable is very unevenly distributed in the population and very hard to assess from afar. Instead, companies hire based on whether you've already been trained/educated in how to do the thing, which amounts to letting someone else take on the risk associated with your failing to learn something. If I were tasked with solving this, I'd advocate for more frank discussion and…

> various pseudo tests Leetcode fits this too

All people I know who have been good at leetcode have been good at coding (of course they may lack other important skills but that you can assess with other questions). You can't become good at leetcode without being good at logical thinking. But not all good coders are good at it because it also requires skills unrelated to the job to be good at leetcode.

I do not advocate for leetcode tests, but I think they have a bit unfair reputation. There are many worse interview questions.

Re: Discussion: Job seekers can't find a job and Employers can't find an employees

#93

Post by kayodelycaon »

tkellogg wrote: post #18
whatever1 wrote: post #3

Tinder for jobs. Swipe to interview.

This is obviously a joke, but I wonder if there's something to it. A recommendation engine to surface interesting jobs to a candidate, and quality candidates to an employer. It seems like recruiters/sourcers are inefficient at doing it. The trouble is getting critical mass.

Add a social network for people to meet and I think you've just described LinkedIn.

Re: Discussion: Job seekers can't find a job and Employers can't find an employees

#94

Post by vitalurk »

It's been tough finding a role as a UX designer who is self-taught and has experience despite a lack of degree. Most of what I can find is hourly or small fee gigs that are devoid of any real value (You cannot hire a 1099 to whip up your UX in a week, sorry.)

It's disheartening, and I'm about to stop looking for work for 4yrs while I use my education benefits to go to school. I can get paid $2k/mo to study, so I think I'll put together a team and spend 4yrs building micro-SaaS products while studying art history, instead of siphoning my energy and soul applying to tinder-algorithm-powered-job-onboardings.

A goddamn waste if you ask me.

A product/UX designer who has worked almost 100% remotely as of yet.

Re: Discussion: Job seekers can't find a job and Employers can't find an employees

#95

Post by ralphc »

surajrmal wrote: post #56
tlb wrote: post #8

It's not any kind of paradox. Structural unemployment happens when the skills of the work force don't match the needs of employers, so there is both unemployment and difficulty hiring. Structural unemployment is usually high when there's a rapid change in demand for skills, as of course there is in tech. It results in crazy high salaries too. People with machine learning experience are getting 7-figure offers, while…

It's also not helpful when employers refuse to train and demand folks with the skills they want. If the supply of folks you want doesn't't exist, you need to do your part to grow them.

I'll throw in my personal example from 2012 when I was laid off. Senior dev, about 30 years experience at the time. A friend knew of an opening somewhere but they wanted GWT experience, I didn't have it so they wouldn't talk to me. 6 weeks later they were still looking. Like I couldn't learn GWT in six weeks? If they hired any decent dev after a good general screening and gave him the docs they could self-learn GWT in less time than that.

Re: Discussion: Job seekers can't find a job and Employers can't find an employees

#96

Post by SantalBlush »

mberning wrote: post #22
Beijinger wrote: post #2

The job market has collapsed. You need to know someboody. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons

I have interviewed dozens of people for fairly specialized roles and the number of people with an impressive looking resume that end up being pretenders is probably greater than 90%. I would much rather interview and hire someone that another trusted party can vouch for. I understand that everyone wants to grow in their career, stretch themself, market themself well, etc. but there is a lot of blatant lying and cheat…

The modern application process is a spammer's dream. It works like Google search: optimize based on keywords to drive your resume 'page' to the top. People mastered the SEO game a long time ago, so it should be no surprise that recruiters are getting clickbait resumes.

Re: Discussion: Job seekers can't find a job and Employers can't find an employees

#97

Post by 1123581321 »

emptysongglass wrote: post #36
schnebbau wrote: post #14

Juniors keep jumping ship to better offers as soon as they graduate to mid-level and become useful. Eventually employers have caught on, and now skip step 1.

Because employers have incentivized this behavior by not paying employees what employees know they'll get when they've attained the skills and experience they need.

It's rather because the junior and the company disagree on how skilled the junior should be rated as they grow. At a new company, you get the benefit of fresh perception plus the honeymoon period to finish maturing.

Static job slots are also a problem, though. It would be wonderful to see companies hire for a vector/trajectory at the company, but that comes with its own issues if the employee doesn't change as well as hoped.

Re: Discussion: Job seekers can't find a job and Employers can't find an employees

#98

Post by SideQuark »

banannaise wrote: post #63
tlb wrote: post #8

It's not any kind of paradox. Structural unemployment happens when the skills of the work force don't match the needs of employers, so there is both unemployment and difficulty hiring. Structural unemployment is usually high when there's a rapid change in demand for skills, as of course there is in tech. It results in crazy high salaries too. People with machine learning experience are getting 7-figure offers, while…

Structural unemployment happens when the perceived skills of the workforce don't match the perceived needs of employers, so there is both unemployment and difficulty hiring. A lot of engineers will tell you that companies are often expecting both too much (precise types of experience) and the wrong things (leetcode-type challenges, unnecessarily specific knowledge...), which leads them to pass over perfectly qualifie…

Quite often perception of reality matches actual reality.

I've found it extremely rare to the point of almost being non-existent that what engineers think a company needs or should do is accurate compared to what a company needs or should do.

Re: Discussion: Job seekers can't find a job and Employers can't find an employees

#100

Post by adra »

thiago_fm wrote: post #15

Job market has deteriorated a lot. Most companies are afraid to invest because of a possible recession and AI. Companies are only hiring people that perfectly fit their criteria. No more budget for junior devs and people that needs any kind of training. Most companies keep roles open but don't hire anyone, because typically they have recruiters in house and need to give them something to do. I know this based on mine…

Graduating into Y2K, there was definitely a period where new grads and a bunch of experienced devs couldn't find work at least for a couple years. I can only guess that it also happened to some extent during GFC.
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