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LPCAMM2 is a modular, repairable, upgradeable memory standard for laptops

ifixit.com

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Re: LPCAMM2 is a modular, repairable, upgradeable memory standard for laptops

#91

Post by kristianp »

wmf wrote: post #24
sliken wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple ships 128 bit, 256 bit, and 512 bit wide memory interfaces on laptops (up to 1024 bit wide on desktops). Is it feasible to fit memory bandwidth like the M3 Max (512 bits wide LPDDR5-6400) with LPCAMM2 in a thin/light laptop?

For 512 bits you would need four LPCAMM2s. I could imagine putting two on opposite sides of the SoC but four might require a huge motherboard.

Perhaps future LPCAMM generations will require more bits? I still can't imagine apple using them unless required by right to repair laws. But those laws probably don't extend to making RAM upgradeable.

Re: LPCAMM2 is a modular, repairable, upgradeable memory standard for laptops

#92

Post by teaearlgraycold »

7speter wrote: post #77
pja wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This PDF[1] suggests that an LPCAMM2 module has a 128 bit wide memory interface, so the epic memory bandwidth of the M3 max won’t be achievable with one of these memory modules. High end devices could potentially have two or more of them arranged around the CPU though? [1] https://investors.micron.com/node/47186/pdf

Apple could just make lower tier macbooks but mac fanboys wouldnt be able to ask “but what about apples quarterly profits?” Most macbooks dont need high memory bandwidth, most users are using their macs for word processing, excel and vscode.

Yes but Apple’s trying to build an ecosystem where users get highly quality, offline, low latency AI computed on their device. Today there’s not much of that. And I don’t think they even really know what’s going to justify all of that silicon in the neural engine and the memory bandwidth.

Imagine 5 years from now people have built whole stacks on that foundation. And then competing laptops need to ship that compute to the cloud, with all of the unsolvable problems that come with that. Privacy, service costs (ads?), latency, reliability.

Re: LPCAMM2 is a modular, repairable, upgradeable memory standard for laptops

#93

Post by kristianp »

So this is going into the ThinkPad P1 (Gen 7), which is too expensive and power hungry for my use cases. How long until it filters down into less expensive SKUs? Are we talking next years generation?

Ifixit also links to a repair guide:

https://www.ifixit.com/Device/Lenovo_ThinkPad_P1_Gen_7

Re: LPCAMM2 is a modular, repairable, upgradeable memory standard for laptops

#94

Post by klysm »

orev wrote: post #14

I’m glad they explained why RAM has become soldered to the board recently. It’s easy to be cynical and assume they were doing it for profit motive purposes (which might be a nice side effect), but it’s good to know that there’s also a technical reason to solder it. Even better to know that it’s been recognized and a solution is being worked on.

I didn’t really appreciate the insanity of the electrical engineering involved in high frequency stuff till I tried to design some PCBs. A simplistic mental model of wires and interconnects rapidly falls apart as frequencies increase

Re: LPCAMM2 is a modular, repairable, upgradeable memory standard for laptops

#95

Post by makeitdouble »

drivingmenuts wrote: post #46
orev wrote: post #14

I’m glad they explained why RAM has become soldered to the board recently. It’s easy to be cynical and assume they were doing it for profit motive purposes (which might be a nice side effect), but it’s good to know that there’s also a technical reason to solder it. Even better to know that it’s been recognized and a solution is being worked on.

The problem is getting manufacturers to implement the new RAM standard. While the justifications given are great for the consumer, I didn't see any reason for a manufacturer to sign on. They are going to lose money when people buy new RAM, rather than a whole new laptop. While processor speeds and size haven't plateaued yet, it's going to take a while to develop significant new speed upgrades and in the meantime, the…

I'd see two angles:

- the manufacturer themselves benefit from easier to repair machines. If DELL can replace the RAM and send back the laptop in a matter of minutes instead of replacing the whole motherboard to then have it salvaged somewhere else, it's a clear win.

- prosumers will be willing to invest more in a laptop that has better chance to survive a few years. Right now we're all expecting to have parts fail within 2 to 3 years on the higher end, and budget accordingly. You need a serious reason to buy a 3000$/€ laptop that might be dead in 2 years. Knowing it could weather RAM failure without manufacturer repair is a plus.

Re: LPCAMM2 is a modular, repairable, upgradeable memory standard for laptops

#96

Post by wtallis »

7speter wrote: post #78
colinng wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They will maliciously comply. They might even have 4 sockets for the 512-bit wide systems. But then they’ll keep the SSD devices soldered - just like they’ve done for a long time. Or cover them with epoxy, or rig it with explosives. That’ll show you for trying to upgrade! How dare you ruin the beautiful fat profit margin that our MBAs worked so hard to design in?!?

Apple lines perimeter of the nand chips on modern mac minis with an array of tiny capacitors, so even the crazy people with heater boards can’t unsolder the nand and replace them with higher density NAND.

Have you not looked at the NAND packages on any regular SSDs? Tiny decoupling caps alongside the NAND is pretty standard practice.

Re: LPCAMM2 is a modular, repairable, upgradeable memory standard for laptops

#97

Post by [deleted] »

7speter wrote: post #76
drivingmenuts wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is getting manufacturers to implement the new RAM standard. While the justifications given are great for the consumer, I didn't see any reason for a manufacturer to sign on. They are going to lose money when people buy new RAM, rather than a whole new laptop. While processor speeds and size haven't plateaued yet, it's going to take a while to develop significant new speed upgrades and in the meantime, the…

These companies did plenty well 12+ years ago when users could upgrade their systems memory.

[deleted]

Re: LPCAMM2 is a modular, repairable, upgradeable memory standard for laptops

#98

Post by seanp2k2 »

tombert wrote: post #67
orev wrote: post #14

I’m glad they explained why RAM has become soldered to the board recently. It’s easy to be cynical and assume they were doing it for profit motive purposes (which might be a nice side effect), but it’s good to know that there’s also a technical reason to solder it. Even better to know that it’s been recognized and a solution is being worked on.

Yeah, I was actually surprised to learn there was a reason other than "Apple wants you to buy a new Macbook or overspec your current one". It's annoying, but at least there's a plausible reason to why they do it.

"...and they charge 4x what the retail of premium RAM would otherwise be per GB"

do storage next.

Re: LPCAMM2 is a modular, repairable, upgradeable memory standard for laptops

#99

Post by seanp2k2 »

jauntywundrkind wrote: post #25
sliken wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple ships 128 bit, 256 bit, and 512 bit wide memory interfaces on laptops (up to 1024 bit wide on desktops). Is it feasible to fit memory bandwidth like the M3 Max (512 bits wide LPDDR5-6400) with LPCAMM2 in a thin/light laptop?

Hoping we see AMD Strix Halo with it's 256-bit interface crammed into an aggressively cooled fairly-thin fairly-light. But it's going to require heavy cooling to make full use of. Heck, make it only run full tilt when on an active cooling dock. Let it run half power when unassisted.

Kinda hilarious to see gamers buying laptops that can't actually leave the house in any practical meaningful way. I feel like some of them would be better off with SFF PCs and the external monitors they already use. I guess the biggest appeal I've seen is the ability to fold up the gaming laptop and put the dock away to get it off the desk, but then moving to an SFF on the ground plus a wireless gaming keyboard and wireless mouse that they already use with the normal laptop + one of those compact "portable" monitors seems like it'd solve the same problem.

Re: LPCAMM2 is a modular, repairable, upgradeable memory standard for laptops

#100

Post by throwaway48476 »

kokada wrote: post #58
Aurornis wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Too bad apple is almost guaranteed to not adopt the standard. Apple would require multiple LPCAMM2 modules to provide the bus width necessary for their chips. Up to 4 x LPCAMM2 modules depending on the processor. The size of each LPCAMM2 module is almost as big as the entire size of an Apple CPU combined with the unified RAM chips, so putting 2-4 LPCAMM2 modules on the board is completely infeasible without signifi…

> Up to 4 x LPCAMM2 modules depending on the processor. The non-Pro/Max versions (e.g. M3) uses 128-bits, and arguably is the kind of notebook that mostly needs to be upgraded later since they commonly come with only 8GB of RAM. Even the Pro versions (e.g. M3 Pro) use up-to 256-bits, that would be 2 x LPCAMM2 modules, that seem plausible. For the M3 Max in the Macbook Pro, yes, 4 x LPCAMM2 would be impossible (probab…

It would only need to be 2x per board side.
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