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The unstallable plane that stalled

fearoflanding.com

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Re: The unstallable plane that stalled

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like the two surviving passengers would have died if they had life jackets on. I can’t imagine getting out of an inverted, flooded 185 cabin with a life jacket on. I think there was some sense to not requiring life jackets on seaplanes. They’re much more confined spaces than most pleasure boats, not to mention that you’re usually on a boat rather than in it. The flooding is also usually just about instant a…

My reflex is to never mandate safety procedures. To put it simply, why should the state use force to mandate something like safety. The implication being if someone refuses the force of the state is used on them… which is definitely not good or improving safety. Mandating the seatbelts exist, sure. Mandating people wear them? Idk about that. In the case of tractors for instance, wearing a seatbelt is downright danger…

It's not just you and your passengers that are less safe when you drive without seatbelts.

If you have to make a sudden sharp swerve when driving centrifugal forces try to move you from in front of the steering wheel, which can make it harder for you to remain in control. That increases the danger to nearby vehicles and pedestrians (and to nearby property that you might hit).

Seat and shoulder belts help keep you in place in front of the steering wheel.

Re: The unstallable plane that stalled

#92

Soapbox: Stall speed is an approximation. It's baffling that GA aircraft don't have one of the most safety-critical measurements: AOA. Stall airspeed varies with a number of factors; this includes the mods described in the article, and weight change from burning fuel, passengers, payload etc. AOA is more invariant to that as a metric for choosing stall speed, speed down final etc.

Soapbox next to your soapbox: GA planes are old specifically because of the FAA and their overly restrictive regulations. The cost involved to create an AoA sensor & readout is minimal and at least one company has done it with an IMU only. The cost to certify, sell, and install an AoA sensor (in terms of both money and time waiting to get on the schedule of an FAA-blessed installer) is more than most people find it t…

AoA indicators are able to be installed in certified aircraft as minor modifications, per the FAA policy from 2014.

There are FAA regulations that are overly conservative IMO, but I think the FAA has a sensible stance on AoA indicators.

Re: The unstallable plane that stalled

#93
The mindset of that pilot inherently dangerous and complacent. A friend of mine was a casual GA pilot in college. He was constantly practicing failure modes and making contingency plans such as engine failure at different points of takeoff and practicing stall recovery at various speeds, altitudes, bank angles, and AoAs.

Re: The unstallable plane that stalled

#94
I've been involved in general aviation since the late 1970s, currently commercial/twin/instrument rated, have a degree in aerospace engineering, and do what my username says for a living. So I know airplanes, and why they do the things they do. But an appreciation for what is physically occurring during a stall, how the resulting balance of forces influence the aircraft handling during a stall and recovery, and why the recovery must be handled in a specific sequence to avoid overstressing the airplane or losing directional control, are not intuitive and have never been a very strong point among pilots, or even instructors. As a result, you have poorly educated instructors passing along old folk tales to new pilots, who then take them as gospel.

This has been exacerbated over the years by the segregation of the pilot population into two separate groups, who often receive training that stresses different objectives.

Part 141 flight schools are the typical staring point for airline pilots. In these schools, even when flying little Pipers and Cessnas, stall avoidance is the primary method which is taught. Pilots are instructed to initiate a "stall recovery" at the "first indication of stall", which is taught to be stall warning horn indicator sound happening. The goal is to recover with no loss of altitude, and the technique is to add power to power out of the indicated stall immediately upon hearing the stall warning indicator, and use the elevator to keep the airplane at the same altitude. The problem is that the stall warning horn indicator typical starts sounding about 5 knots in advance of a fully developed stall when flying more or less straight and level. So these pilots never experience a fully developed stall, just an approach-to-stall, and often develop an extreme fear of entering an actual stall. This recovery technique also only works in an airliner in the case of an approach-to-stall or at most a very shallow stall. To recover an airliner from a fully developed stall, you must use the same techniques as you do in a Cessna 172, which is to drop the nose to lower the angle of attach and trade some altitude in for airspeed. This was vividly demonstrated by the five co-captains of Air France Flight 447, who tried to power their way out of a fully developed stall, that could have been easily recovered from by a typical student pilot using Cessna techniques.

I learned to fly in a Part 61 school, which typically are things like flying clubs and independent flight instructors teaching people who mostly fly for fun, or for light commercial use like charters, and will be mostly flying light propeller aircraft. In this environment, the aircraft have a much lower power to weight ratio, you cannot power your way out of even an approach-to-stall. Instead of stall avoidance, stall entry, recovery, and exit is taught. Instead of the goal being to minimizing altitude loss, maximizing aircraft control is taught. The goal is to prevent a poorly-handled stall from developing into a spin, which will usually result in a fatal accident like this one did. So if you learned in a Part 61 school, instead of starting recovery as soon as you heard the stall horn, you kept going until a full stall, and the expectation is that the student would say "STALL" when they identified that the airplane had entered a fully developed stall, based on changes in the handling characteristics and sudden drop in altitude. The student would then initiate a recovery by pushing the nose down to reduce the angle of attack, smoothly adding power and right rudder at the same time to add airspeed and counteract for yaw, and then recover from the resulting shallow dive with no more than 200' loss of altitude, but keeping the airplane under perfect directional control. So in part 61 schools, instead of recovering as soon as you heard the horn blip, you spent a lot of time with it going off in your ear. In fact my instructor used to pull the circuit breaker for it after it went off, as we already knew we were going to be spending a lot of time in an incipient stall condition, and could tell more from the changes in sound of the air going past us than some buzzer. But even in this environment, there are some instructors who just don't like doing stalls, so spend the minimum required amount of time teaching and practicing them.

If you are a pilot who learned in a Part 141 school, or in Part 61 but didn't spend a lot of time in deep stalls, one of the best investments you could make in yourself is to find an experienced instructor and ask to spend an hour doing "Falling Leaf" stalls, where you alternately keep the airplane in a deep stalled condition, and then recover while you really practice your rudder coordination. They're fun! You will loose your fear of stalls and develop skills/instincts that might save you in an situation like this pilot ended up in. You don't need a fancy aerobatic airplane, a Cessna 172 will work fine, but I prefer a 150 because it does not handle like a minivan.

Here's a good video on YouTubes to show what it would typically look and sound like during a lesson: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ocv2YDLk5t0 Note that this is not an example of a perfectly textbook executed falling leaf, it's a student pilot performing them with varying degrees of competence (some good, some not.. keep them ailerons neutral!) and an proficient instructor allowing them to make some mistakes and experiment within the safe bounds of aircraft controlability. So a typical lesson with a good instructor.

Re: The unstallable plane that stalled

#95
post #65

> It is common for flight operations in the wilderness to have the take-off weight close to the maximum. It is common for the majority of flights in general to have take-off weight close to the maximum, not just bush flying. The same goes for the remark that "center or gravity was close to the forward limit", that sounds like a risk but it is not. If it's exactly at the limit, that's fine and perfectly safe to fly. I…

It is not uncommon for flight operations in the wilderness to be up to 15% heavier than the certified maximum limit, and still be perfectly legal. Relevant regulation: 14 CFR § 91.323 - https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/chapter-I/subchapter-F...

Interesting, tnx. We don't have such a general exception in EASA. Only possible with a special permit and a lot of paperwork for a ferry flight or similar.

Re: The unstallable plane that stalled

#96

Non sequitur from non-pilot: I was once in Duluth, MN in the bitter cold and watched a Cessna with skis (for landing on the frozen lakes of the Boundary Waters) land at the airport. It was the utterly bewildering to see how slowly it was going in the air. And how little distance it took to stop. Short Landing Kit I assume. I've seen ducks and geese come into land on lakes at higher speeds!

A certain STOL-modified Piper Cub barely needs a runway longer than a driveway. https://youtu.be/hPakbghLe38

Re: The unstallable plane that stalled

#97
post #72
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of those Cessnas have a stall speed so low they can fly backward on a windy day.

I have been a passenger in a C-170 with a STOL kit that flew backwards over a beach on the Washington coast. We landed well behind where we took off. The takeoff and landing were both nearly vertical. Had a steady wind from the ocean.

You forgot to unfurl the course sails and get out and push.

Re: The unstallable plane that stalled

#98
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not uncommon for flight operations in the wilderness to be up to 15% heavier than the certified maximum limit, and still be perfectly legal. Relevant regulation: 14 CFR § 91.323 - https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/chapter-I/subchapter-F...

Interesting, tnx. We don't have such a general exception in EASA. Only possible with a special permit and a lot of paperwork for a ferry flight or similar.

It's magical how the airframe gets 15% stronger just by arriving in Alaska!

Re: The unstallable plane that stalled

#99

Soapbox: Stall speed is an approximation. It's baffling that GA aircraft don't have one of the most safety-critical measurements: AOA. Stall airspeed varies with a number of factors; this includes the mods described in the article, and weight change from burning fuel, passengers, payload etc. AOA is more invariant to that as a metric for choosing stall speed, speed down final etc.

Gentle reminder that it's good practice to define your acronyms at least once, particularly for audiences they may not be SMES.

Re: The unstallable plane that stalled

#100
So many factors that could be blamed in this story. As in every other aircraft accident. But EVERY plane will stall.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS AN 'UNSTALLABLE' PLANE.

I once overloaded a plane inadvertently, by having a heavy load plus a full weight of fuel.

At the point of lift-off, the stall-warning started screaming at me as I started to go into the climb. Training kicked in and I pushed the nose down to maintain flying speed. Practically no climb at all possible though. I did a very quick and low circuit, landed and offloaded.

Funny how those little tense moments stay with you for ever. :)

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