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I'm giving up on open source

nutjs.dev

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Re: I'm giving up on open source

#91

Post by MBCook »

talldayo wrote: post #46
MBCook wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. Open source shouldn’t be limited to those with thick skin willing to take heaps of abuse. This is a big culture problem driving a ton of good people away to avoid annoying jerks who deserve to go.

If you want to coordinate a software project with multiple people, you need good people skills. Open source projects with an unstable core contributor very often fail or get forked into a clone by their community, it's just the nature of the thing. It's a "big culture problem" in the same way profit maximization is the destroyer of modern businesses. Everyone uses Open Source software; annoying teenagers, political d…

Putting up with abuse and good people skills are orthogonal.

Also I never said anything about an “unstable core contributor”.

I fully disagree that nothing can be done about this. I never said people shouldn’t have to deal with disagreements or unlicensed use. Yeah that’s going to happen.

All I’m saying is projects should take a much much harder line on abusive/rude treatment. The people who act that way will never change if they don’t face consequences. When project A puts up with it, they learn they can do it to B and C too.

But if A and B stood up, maybe C and D wouldn’t even see it.

It will never be zero. But it can be a lot less than it is now.

Re: I'm giving up on open source

#92

Post by djha-skin »

I like how the OP moves to a time release monetizing model, where like cockroach, it's open source eventually. It could be an interesting counterpoint to the open core model, and one much more feasible for an individual developer. Only problem is, how do you make sure the source is open for some but not others for that period of time?

Re: I'm giving up on open source

#93

Post by orliesaurus »

I maintain an OSS that is 10x smaller than the author of the post and I have experienced the same absurd community behavior.

I feel bad for the state of open source [0] - even when Microsoft literally a couple of weeks ago pulled the "FIX THIS NOW" card on ffmpeg https://trac.ffmpeg.org/ticket/10341#comment:4

[0] https://blog.tidelift.com/maintainer-burnout-is-real

Re: I'm giving up on open source

#94

Post by silisili »

endominus wrote: post #11

"The lower your prices, the more entitled the user base you seem to draw." Not literally, perhaps, but with a wider net you do catch more of the louder, more annoying or insulting voices. I've seen this repeated too many times already (RIP FairEmail). Is this simply an endemic issue in the software space? I can imagine a great deal of people thinking it's not worth it to financially support a project or plugin they r…

That tracks with my experiences in life. It's why you see constant streams of fight videos coming from fast food places and not Ruth's Chris. Or Walmart, and less so Target or Pier One.

It's also why I quit listing things for free on Craigslist or FB. The absolute dregs of society come out to play. They'll demand you bring it to them, or that you hold it til they're ready, etc. And if someone else got it first, expect to receive a slew of hate messages. Not worth any of the hassle anymore.

Re: I'm giving up on open source

#95

Post by DavidPiper »

danielmarkbruce wrote: post #43
lordleft wrote: post #6

I will never understand how entitled or mean people can be towards OSS devs. I sympathize with this post a great deal and wish the author all the best in whatever he does next.

It's mostly naivety. There are a lot of people who really don't understand that people are doing something without getting paid, as a side gig, just to be helpful. They just don't get it. An uncle, who is a totally decent human being otherwise would complain loudly and bitterly at folks who ran kids sporting events when things didn't run smoothly. At the time I didn't think much of it, until I was an adult and saw th…

I love this framing.

My experience of people like this uncle is also that they have generally never done something like running kids sporting events, and in some cases outwardly signal that such work would be beneath them. (Not saying this is true for your uncle, but it is in some of my experiences.)

Re: I'm giving up on open source

#96

Post by zogrodea »

DopplerSmell wrote: post #48
Woovie wrote: post #30

I understand some their complaints, others seem like typical support questions. It's inevitable and regardless of making money, it's going to happen. People suck at reading. But, I can't look past the AI art used to generate the YouTube thumbnail on the main page. I'm sure some artist wishes they could work on an art full time, and still be able to pay their bills just as you say you wish about your software. No one…

Weird take... AI art is cheap or free, but that doesn't mean anything at all in relation to how you treat the person providing the service. You have failed to understand that the value of the service is fundamentally different, providing open source software costs a human effort. Providing art no longer requires the same amount of human effort, if AI is acceptable, so it's not at all comparable.

What would you say to someone who responds that AI art only exists because of training data stolen from unpaid artists?

Re: I'm giving up on open source

#97

Post by djha-skin »

lucajona wrote: post #51

For context, I started an open source project that is arguably 10x more popular than Nutjs (20k stars on github vs 2k). I also gave up on maintaining it, but others stepped in to take care of it so it's still running. The parallels between open source and bolshevism are interesting. I'm not a history expert, but this is just how it appears to me. - Contempt for property - Pitches itself as a movement by "the people",…

Prescient.

Re: I'm giving up on open source

#98

Post by skydhash »

ToucanLoucan wrote: post #24
endominus wrote: post #11

"The lower your prices, the more entitled the user base you seem to draw." Not literally, perhaps, but with a wider net you do catch more of the louder, more annoying or insulting voices. I've seen this repeated too many times already (RIP FairEmail). Is this simply an endemic issue in the software space? I can imagine a great deal of people thinking it's not worth it to financially support a project or plugin they r…

I think the simple truth of it is that the value of software just doesn't translate to a lot of people's day to day. People will spend tons of money more than willingly for access to streaming libraries full of inane, samey bullshit. People will spend $70 to access the latest AAA game, people will spend thousands on well-tuned PC's, people will spend tens of thousands on cars, hundreds of thousands on homes, with var…

Open Source is great, but there should be a clear delimitation between users and maintainers. Like you want to contribute, make sure that you’ve read the guide and present your patch as it’s stated. You want to file a bug, fill this form. You have an idea, go on this board and see if something similar has not been posted already. If yes, add your vote. You can’t build a project with the whole world micromanaging you.

Re: I'm giving up on open source

#99

Post by justinclift »

MBCook wrote: post #35
justinclift wrote: post #27

> This public issue on the nut.js repo ... Personally speaking, if that user had posted something with the same attitude on one of my projects repos they'd have been banned from the repos of the entire org. Pretty sure I've only ever had to do that twice before, across a lot of years.

I think that’s a part of the problem. WAY too many projects/people are tolerant enough of abuse in issue trackers/mailing lists that this kind of behavior seems common. I suspect a LOT more bans would really help with the average tone and amount of contributor stress/burnout.

Yeah. There is an aspect of "case by case basis" to it, as sometimes people are just frustrated and venting a bit. As long as they're not being destructive arseholes while doing it, it can be excusable.

But the whole "destructive arsehole" approach is over that line, and needs dealing with accordingly.

Re: I'm giving up on open source

#100

Post by jltsiren »

ToucanLoucan wrote: post #24
endominus wrote: post #11

"The lower your prices, the more entitled the user base you seem to draw." Not literally, perhaps, but with a wider net you do catch more of the louder, more annoying or insulting voices. I've seen this repeated too many times already (RIP FairEmail). Is this simply an endemic issue in the software space? I can imagine a great deal of people thinking it's not worth it to financially support a project or plugin they r…

I think the simple truth of it is that the value of software just doesn't translate to a lot of people's day to day. People will spend tons of money more than willingly for access to streaming libraries full of inane, samey bullshit. People will spend $70 to access the latest AAA game, people will spend thousands on well-tuned PC's, people will spend tens of thousands on cars, hundreds of thousands on homes, with var…

When the marginal cost of creating another copy is essentially $0, the market price for the product tends towards zero. People are then willing to pay more for the convenience of having the product readily available than for the product itself.

People pay for streaming services and buy stuff from app stores, because it's convenient. But if the service is not convenient enough, the catalog is too narrow, or the price is too high, piracy and free alternatives start looking more attractive.

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