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Everything we can't describe in music

hazlitt.net

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Re: Everything we can't describe in music

#91
A fine article on the role of timbre which is indeed discussed little compared to the focus on harmony and form for classical music. Charles Rosen gave one possible reason for this neglect in his book "Piano Notes", where he traces it to a philosophical prejudice of composers from Hadyn onwards against variety in tone colour and in favour of more abstract qualities.

> The utility of the piano for composing was its neutral and uniform tone color: in theory (although not in reality) the tone quality of the bass is the same as the treble. In any case, the change in tone color over the whole range of the piano is, or should be, gradual and continuous (there are breaks, of course, when the notes go from one string in the bass to two and then to three in the treble). The monochrome piano might be used therefore just for its arrangements of pitches, and the quality of the sound could-absurdly in many cases-be considered secondary.

> What made it possible for composers to refuse to acknowledge the difference on the piano between treble and bass and leave whatever problems arose to be solved by the performer was the fact that the change in tone color over the span of the keyboard is not like the leap from a bassoon to a flute but continuous and very gradual when the instrument is properly voiced. These imperceptible gradations are the result of a deliberate policy of a unified sonority on the part of musicians and instrument makers. All attempts over the history of piano construction to incorporate anything analogous to the picturesque changes of registration in the organ and the harpsichord had little success, were not exploited by composers, and were finally abandoned. Radical contrasts of tone color were traded for the possibility of making a gradual crescendo or diminuendo. This was a decision that took place at the same time as the preeminence accorded to the string quartet over all other forms of chamber music; that, too, emphasized the importance of a unified tone color. Chamber music with wind instruments, while the occasion for several masterpieces, became the exception, an exotic form. That is why the use of colorful sonorities in the orchestra has so often been considered somewhat vulgar, as if calling attention to the sound were paradoxically to detract from the music. The prestige given to pure string sonority is part of the asceticism of nineteenth-century high culture. Contrasts of tone color were given a significantly lower place in the hierarchy of musical elements. This is one reason that only the piano repertory rivals the string quartet as the most respectable medium for private and semiprivate music-making from Haydn to Brahms.

Re: Everything we can't describe in music

#92
post #4

Arnold Schoenberg observed the deep connection between music, perception, and cognition; anticipated composers applying timbral control as is now commonly done with synthesizers; and apparently did not anticipate non-subtlety of the effect in EDM: "I think the tone becomes perceptible by virtue of tone color [timbre], of which one dimension is pitch. ... Pitch is nothing else but tone color measured in one direction.…

I had a simple thought a couple years ago that still fascinates me. If you do something as simple as "clap clap clap" (with equal measures of time), you can naturally relate it to any other set of sounds with that simple pattern (ABABA). moreover, there is a 1 to 1 relation of this abstraction in space, where one can represent the sounds as marks on a screen (as I have done here for example, as "clap clap clap, X X X…

I think you would enjoy reading James Gleick's The Information!

Edit0: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talking_drum

It begins by talking about this, maybe that's a good start! It documents that they are able to transmit complex messages like jokes and proverbs entirely through rhythm!

Re: Everything we can't describe in music

#93
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is just another point of frustration with trying to define timbre. There's definitely some points directly under control: attack and brightness come to mind. Then there's some that are less directly under control: the room and the instrument itself. It's no accident that musicians spend a lot of money on instruments -- even electric guitar players -- an instrument that is electronically amplified and oft…

>Different wood types will produce different tonal characteristics. True for acoustic guitars, but for electric guitars this is thoroughly debunked: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n02tImce3AE Previous HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36106674

TIL! I grew up hearing about it so much from the broader guitar community that I just took it as truth.

The idea holds across many acoustic instruments though.

Re: Everything we can't describe in music

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My experience in pursuing this is that I applied to about a dozen on-campus CS grad programs, over the course of two years, noting this research direction, but those applications were all rejected. You would think with the emergence of generative AI that there could be some interest. I suspect the application was of interest, but that universities have a shortage of experts in generative AI, and that a multidisciplin…

Oh wow thats nuts. Did you end up attending grad school for something else? Ive been thinking about applying but I haven't even able to find any departments that do research in this area. There is a huge craze around ML as its producing tangible results and it seems the school of thought is that anything else is wasted time. The closest thing Ive found to my own is Wolframs writings. Seriously I know I seem like a de…

Would you mind reaching out through a contact method in my profile? The discussion is getting less general so that might be a better avenue.

Re: Everything we can't describe in music

#95
post #84
post #49

> "Timbre’s role in music has always been underrated, or even ignored, probably because it is an intangible that’s difficult to describe, hard to categorize, and so far, immune to measurement. " In the mid-to-late 1800s, Herman Helmholtz was building spectrographs of musical sounds by listening to them through a bunch of resonators of varying sizes that acted as band-pass filters, and recording how loud each harmonic…

The quoted section of the article is pretty out of touch with modern music. Many (most?) genres of EDM place the importance of timbre and texture above harmony and melody

That was mentioned in the article.

> Timbre is even more crucial in contemporary genres such as electronic dance music and rap. EDM, said Swoger-Ruston, is really “experimentation with timbre.” The widespread use of sampling means the sample, not the note, is increasingly the basic unit of music.

Re: Everything we can't describe in music

#96
Synth players have studied and emulated timbres (and created new ones) since the pipe organ (an additive synthesizer). Many books have been written about timbre in electronic terms -- a combination of frequencies and amplitude envelopes that either sound to our ears like classical instruments, or like something else entirely.

I would go so far as to say understanding and selection of timbre is 50% of the work of a synth player.

Re: Everything we can't describe in music

#97
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a simple thought a couple years ago that still fascinates me. If you do something as simple as "clap clap clap" (with equal measures of time), you can naturally relate it to any other set of sounds with that simple pattern (ABABA). moreover, there is a 1 to 1 relation of this abstraction in space, where one can represent the sounds as marks on a screen (as I have done here for example, as "clap clap clap, X X X…

I think you would enjoy reading James Gleick's The Information! Edit0: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talking_drum It begins by talking about this, maybe that's a good start! It documents that they are able to transmit complex messages like jokes and proverbs entirely through rhythm!

Thanks! checking it out now

Re: Everything we can't describe in music

#98
post #84
post #49

> "Timbre’s role in music has always been underrated, or even ignored, probably because it is an intangible that’s difficult to describe, hard to categorize, and so far, immune to measurement. " In the mid-to-late 1800s, Herman Helmholtz was building spectrographs of musical sounds by listening to them through a bunch of resonators of varying sizes that acted as band-pass filters, and recording how loud each harmonic…

The quoted section of the article is pretty out of touch with modern music. Many (most?) genres of EDM place the importance of timbre and texture above harmony and melody

Yeah, well frankly most EDM fucking sucks and that's pretty much why. Your average cool guy "producer" doesn't know the first thing about intervals, counterpoint, or even basics like triads or major/minor scales. But they sure can twist knobs in a way that makes neat sounds!

Re: Everything we can't describe in music

#99
post #98
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The quoted section of the article is pretty out of touch with modern music. Many (most?) genres of EDM place the importance of timbre and texture above harmony and melody

Yeah, well frankly most EDM fucking sucks and that's pretty much why. Your average cool guy "producer" doesn't know the first thing about intervals, counterpoint, or even basics like triads or major/minor scales. But they sure can twist knobs in a way that makes neat sounds!

Judging a piece based on its technical merit or the artist’s education is extremely limited and pretentious. There’s a tremendous amount of beautiful music made on laptops by people who have no formal training or knowledge of theory. Not everything full of synthesisers and samples is “EDM”.

Re: Everything we can't describe in music

#100
post #98
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The quoted section of the article is pretty out of touch with modern music. Many (most?) genres of EDM place the importance of timbre and texture above harmony and melody

Yeah, well frankly most EDM fucking sucks and that's pretty much why. Your average cool guy "producer" doesn't know the first thing about intervals, counterpoint, or even basics like triads or major/minor scales. But they sure can twist knobs in a way that makes neat sounds!

> Yeah, well frankly most EDM fucking sucks and that's pretty much why. Your average cool guy "producer" doesn't know the first thing about intervals, counterpoint, or even basics like triads or major/minor scales. But they sure can twist knobs in a way that makes neat sounds!

That's a pretty harsh objective take for a highly subjective topic.

A lot of people like it - myself included. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's not valid.

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