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Peter Higgs, physicist who discovered Higgs boson, has died

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Re: Peter Higgs, physicist who discovered Higgs boson, has died

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My parents had a hard time explaining my dad's job to me, so they just told me he was a scientist because he had a masters in physics (he was a diplomat). Like any little kid, my parents were my heroes, so of course this led me to becoming obsessed with scientists and reading up on science stuff, eg trying to read my sister's university textbooks. I developed a hobby of reading up on and sharing factoids I found onli…

I get your sentiment, but I think it's important for science communication to adapt to the times. Decades ago (and even as little as one decade ago), most scientists (maybe Hawking being the exception) who would dare appear in these 1hr documentaries would be belittled by the "hardcore" scientists with the same words you used "Science should not be over-simplified like that", "they are not real scientists, they just…

> "Science should not be over-simplified like that",

It is a difficult balance to strike, but science should be

> as simple as possible, and no simpler

The hard truth is that any simpler means inaccurate, which means when educating the public there __are__ inaccuracies. So the balance to strike is accuracy vs understanding. Most people do not understand the Schrodinger's Cat thought experiment, wave-particle duality, or many similar things (like how one of my namesake's Incompleteness Theorem, Super Position, and the Halting Problem are linked) yet will confidently correct explanations given that do hold more accuracy (even "teaching" those where it is clear one side is vastly more qualified than the other).

But think about it this way, the people getting mad at the over-simplification are not a force preventing public explanation but rather a pressure to find a better and more accurate explanation. The problem is when we frame these things as adversarial in the sense of enemies fighting rather than adversarial in the sense of improving one's self/group's position/arguments/discourse. Both sides can benefit from a reframing of these interactions by not holding the positions as equivalent to one's intellect but rather recognize that statements are independent. We are better as a coalition than separated, even with disagreement (especially with). It is clear here that everyone is on the same side after all, as all parties involved are seeking the same goal: better public education. It then becomes the duty to read between the lines to extract what the actual complaint is, because this is often also difficult to express (without a lengthy process) given we do not know one another's priors. We should not confuse critiques for attacks or dismissals. Nor should we dismiss or attack when we should critique! Though it is acceptable when errors are egregious or when people intentionally mislead. Unfortunately there is a large amount of that, but let's also distinguish idiocracy from maliciousness, as the former can be fixed (if we formulate with the above framing).

Re: Peter Higgs, physicist who discovered Higgs boson, has died

#92
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you succeed with your parents? It's hard to be excited about theoretical physics as a layman. It has been a long time since any of those theories had any practical application.

They still aren't all that interested in this stuff, and on their advice I ended up studying computer engineering instead of physics, but I've still found myself working at one of the other labs with big particle accelerators, as a researcher who can link the computing side with enough of the physics side to work with physicists. They don't fully understand what I do and don't really care too much about the details,…

Damn. Tell your parents you love them often. This comment made me deeply pine for parents that feigned even the tiniest bit of interest in what I'm interested in. Your folks seem wonderful.

Re: Peter Higgs, physicist who discovered Higgs boson, has died

#93

Does the Higgs detection have any economic value, like room tenperature superconductors would? Or is it a scientific curiosity

> have any economic value

Don't downvote them! This is actually a good question! (and gives us a chance to talk about why we should pursue these things!)

It's also incredible difficult to answer! Can we define what it means? Direct or indirect?

=== Indirect (LHC) ===

Well one of the reasons the LHC was built was to find the Higgs. To do so, we had to invent a lot of shit along the way. Thing is, when you're pushing the bounds of human knowledge, you don't exactly have all the devices you need to measure and test everything. The WWW[0] is famously one of such "spin-offs" as we needed to connect scientists from around the globe to distribute the data from this project. Remember that it is an international project[1*]. There is also a lot about superconductors and refrigeration, both of which significantly contribute to modern medical devices. A lot for magnets, vacuum devices, and electronics, all of which have permeated into industry.

These scientific projects also are a big political effort and demonstrate good will and can be grounds for collaboration and building democracies. The hosting countries also have a lot to benefit from as direct collaboration happens there. Just think of the force of putting a bunch of very smart people in a room together, especially when they are experts in very different things. It's difficult to predict the direct revenue, but at such a cheap cost, even small innovations can easily end up covering the costs. Certainly the internet has more than paid for CERN, in the form of tax revenues to each country compared to the cost they give, not to mention benefit to the public (especially considering other indirect aspects).

=== Direct (LHC) ===

Maybe a bit harder. There's some slides here [2] that claim CERN nets 3.3bn for 1993 - 2038. You can find much more detail here[3] and another independent one here[4]. I'd just like to note [4]'s last line in their abstract:

  We conservatively estimate that there is around a 90% probability that benefits exceed costs, with an expected net present value of about 2.9 billion euro, not considering the unpredictable applications of scientific discovery.
=== Specifically the Higgs ===

That's unfortunately impossible to say. To make use of it technologically we're at least 50 years away, which is to say "who the fuck knows". But also remember the cost is almost nothing. If we speculate, it is not unreasonable that the technologies that could be enabled through the understanding of this science (and the requisite further knowledge we'll need) could be insurmountable. We're talking about understanding how mass works. So if we're ever going to invent things like inertial dampeners (which would make mass an irrelevant aspect of transportation), mass effect drives, gravity generators, and so on, knowledge of the Higgs would be essential. But don't hold your breath on seeing technologies any time soon.

Remember that we're playing the long game with science. It is good to think about short term, but never forget the long game. If you forget you may win battles but will lose the war.

=== Side Note About Money ===

The LHC is actually one way I like to think about the ultra billionaires (like Musk, Bezos, Gates types). The reason being that with that level of wealth we cannot ignore the effects of compound interest, as this plays a significant role. Let's take Bezos, the #2 on the list (behind Bernard Arnault) with $203.3B. We can ask, how many LHCs could Bezos make? We assume 10 years to build at 0.5B/yr and then 1B/yr to operate. We'll assume a 7% interest rate, compounded yearly, which means 14.231B/yr! So clearly Bezos is worth at least 14 LHCs! We could get more precision and actually compound, but the quick version gives us a sufficient lower bound to really put into perspective either the wealth of Bezos or how cheap the LHC is. However your want to frame it. FWIW, with the same lazy analysis we get Forbes top 10 as: Arnault @ 15.2 LHCs, Bezos @ 14.2 LHCs, Musk @ 13.72 LHCs, Zuckerberg @ 12.7 LHCs, Ellison @ 10.7 LHCs, Buffett @ 9.6 LHCs, Gates @ 9.2 LHCs, Page @ 9.1 LHCs, Ballmer @ 8.8 LHCs, and Brin @ 8.8 LHCs.

I'm just saying, we could afford a lot of LHCs...

[0] https://www.home.cern/science/computing/birth-web

[1*] I wanted to take a minute to mention the cost, so we can better guestimate the ROI. The project took 10 years to build and cost about $5bn and costs about $1bn/yr to operate, with Germany being the largest contributor and only contributing 21%[1^]. I'm not sure how it works, but the Federal budget is about 370B euros but total gov spending was 1.76T for 2021. That would be 0.065% of the federal budget or 0.014% of the total spending. Pretty fucking cheap if you ask me!

[1^] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CERN#Participation_and_funding

[2] https://fcc-cdr.web.cern.ch/webkit/press_material/Brochure_A... (site: https://fcc.web.cern.ch/society)

[3] https://indico.cern.ch/event/760053/contributions/3152652/at...

[4] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00401...

Re: Peter Higgs, physicist who discovered Higgs boson, has died

#94
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Discovery can happen in a purely mathematical/theoretical context, too.

I think it's fair to say the 'discovery' that this boson exists came with the LHC experiments. But Higgs did discover in 1964 that the Higgs boson could explain why particles have mass. His paper couldn't say "this is definitely the way the universe is", but rather "if the universe plays by the rules we think it does, this is a relatively simple way to explain this thing we see". And in my mind, both of those achieve…

It's definitely semantics and I'm not sure it is worth arguing if we understand what one another means. Unless we're clarifying.

But I do think it is good to discuss the role that others have played in the discovery. After receiving the 2017 Kip Thorne said (Weiss and Barish were the other two)

  It is unfortunate that, due to the statutes of the Nobel Foundation, the prize has to go to no more than three people, when our marvelous discovery is the work of more than a thousand.
Even discoveries of the past were due to the efforts of many. Einstein's shoulder's of giants, which I jokingly refer to as "3 scientists in a trench coat, all the way down". But with modern science, the problems are more difficult and the effort to make these breakthroughs more clearly depends upon the work of hundreds or thousands. It is good to promote these ideas and this recognition. I think it can also help motivate us to better work together, and not letting us think we are a lowly unimportant cog in a giant machine. Because while we may be small cogs, our work is still important (even if not as important as others).

Re: Peter Higgs, physicist who discovered Higgs boson, has died

#95

He didn't discover the Higgs, but he formulated it (along with other people) in 1964. Its discovery was not until 2012.

Discovery can happen in a purely mathematical/theoretical context, too.

I still wouldn’t use the word “discover” in this context. Physics is not pure mathematics. There are many theories that just do not correspond to reality. Would you say that strings and extra dimensions have been discovered? No, we’d say they’ve been predicted by a certain theory, but not discovered yet — the prediction may not even be right!

Re: Peter Higgs, physicist who discovered Higgs boson, has died

#96
post #63

It was a success for particle physics that they found the Higgs, but it was also a tragedy. Discovering the Higgs and nothing else new was the nightmare scenario for the LHC, and so it has come to pass.

Calling it a nightmare scenario is quite the overdramatic description of a successful experiment that validated a core prediction of the standard model

Re: Peter Higgs, physicist who discovered Higgs boson, has died

#99
post #38

I was incredibly fortunate to meet him at CERN the day before the Higgs boson announcement. As an intern, I encountered him the evening prior; he was dining alone in the CERN cafeteria, blending in like a kindly elderly gentleman. He was exceptionally humble and courteous. I feel so lucky that I mustered the courage to speak with him and shake his hand. Rest in peace, Mr. Higgs.

These are the kind of opportunities one must take when they present themselves. Well done.

Re: Peter Higgs, physicist who discovered Higgs boson, has died

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't follow from Bell's inequalities. There are deterministic models of quantum mechanics which are compatible with Bell's theorem.

That's why I argue with people on the internet — to be corrected and learn new things in the process! Please tell more.

Bells theorem says that he predictions of quantum mechanics are incompatible with any "local hidden variable model". Experiments show that the real world appears to follow the predictions of quantum mechanics, so no local hidden variable model can explain what we see in these experiments.

Therefore all you need to understand is what a "local hidden variable model" is, and what the lack of one would mean.

You should think of doing measurements in quantum mechanics as something like flipping a biased coin, or rolling a biased dice. Every time you do a measurement you get some outcome (maybe heads or tails or a number from 1 to 6) but the probabilities aren't generally the same, they're biased in a way which tells you something about the system. They can even be biased so much that the outcomes are deterministic (0 and 1 are still probabilities).

When you flip a coin or roll a dice, the outcomes are random from your point of view, but there isn't really any fundamental randomness going on. There's a bunch of data about how your hand moves, and the local wind speed and pressure and the physical characteristics of the coin which if you knew them then you'd be able to predict the outcome with certainty. People have even been able to build robots which can reliably flip coins to always get a desired outcome.

This "extra information" that makes the outcome deterministic if you know it we could call hidden variables. Its "hidden" because you don't generally know it.

If Bell's theorem said that there was no hidden variables model consistent with the predictions of quantum mechanics we'd be done now. We would have decided that quantum mechanics is fundamentally probabilistic and no extra hidden information could exist to make it deterministic. But Bell emphatically doesn't do that. The theorem says there is no local hidden variable model consistent with quantum mechanics. So what does "local" mean here? For that you can imagine that instead of rolling one dice I'm rolling one here, you're rolling a second one wherever you live, our friend on Mars is rolling a third one, etc. A hidden variable is "local" if it only affects the dice in once location.

Bell's theorem says that if you want to have a hidden variable model that reproduces quantum mechanical predictions then it needs to be nom-local. That is the hidden variable has to affect the experiment here, and the one with you, and the one on Mars all at the same time. We consider that non-local hidden variables are unlikely because they're essentially magic, they need to affect things arbitrarily far away from each other all at the same time. Amongst other things this is wildly on conflict with special relativity.

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