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Amazon ditches 'just walk out' checkouts at its grocery stores

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Re: Amazon ditches 'just walk out' checkouts at its grocery stores

#91

Post by michaelt »

noodlesUK wrote: post #6

I think that the scan-as-you-shop style systems are definitely the next realistic step for grocery stores. I really like using them, as they allow me to put stuff directly into my bags as I go. I think a further improvement on a system like that would be to use the cheap RFID tech (UHF EPC) so that when you walk through the anti-theft barriers, the system knows exactly what you got, and then there's no need to scan a…

> I think a further improvement on a system like that would be to use the cheap RFID tech

Unfortunately I doubt you'll ever see this happen.

Sure, it's supposedly possible to buy an RFID chip for 1p - but you can buy a can of beans for 23p so that 1p is probably their entire profit margin.

I've also worked with a variety of RFID readers; none of them can provide reliable reading, even in favourable conditions.

Re: Amazon ditches 'just walk out' checkouts at its grocery stores

#92

Post by randmeerkat »

kbos87 wrote: post #73

> Though it seemed completely automated, Just Walk Out relied on more than 1,000 people in India watching and labeling videos to ensure accurate checkouts. I know this is ripe to use as a way to dunk on Amazon, but I sincerely doubt that it was as inane as it sounds. They likely had this workforce to train a system that they hoped would eventually operate autonomously. That being said, it sounds like it never panned…

> They likely had this workforce to train a system that they hoped would eventually operate autonomously. That being said, it sounds like it never panned out.

And this is why I think current “AI” technologies are a dead end. Once the rest of the market realizes that maybe we’ll finally get past this “AI” hype bubble.

Re: Amazon ditches 'just walk out' checkouts at its grocery stores

#93

Post by t0mas88 »

diggan wrote: post #54
noodlesUK wrote: post #6

I think that the scan-as-you-shop style systems are definitely the next realistic step for grocery stores. I really like using them, as they allow me to put stuff directly into my bags as I go. I think a further improvement on a system like that would be to use the cheap RFID tech (UHF EPC) so that when you walk through the anti-theft barriers, the system knows exactly what you got, and then there's no need to scan a…

> I think that the scan-as-you-shop style systems are definitely the next realistic step for grocery stores. Scan-as-you-shop has been around for at least a decade at this point I think, at least in some parts of the world. ICA (supermarket in Sweden) been doing it for as long as I can remember, and I came across this image of the scanner being used at the store on Mediawiki: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:S…

Jup it has been available for a very long time in the Netherlands as well.

When I moved to the UK, what surprised me is that Tesco self check out is so much more cumbersome. It weighs your stuff, stops working when something isn't exactly the right weight. Super annoying to use if you're used to the system used in Sweden and The Netherlands. But that was in stores in the middle of central London, it may be very different in more suburban "big" stores which is where it was first rolled out in NL as well.

Re: Amazon ditches 'just walk out' checkouts at its grocery stores

#94

Post by michaelmrose »

noodlesUK wrote: post #6

I think that the scan-as-you-shop style systems are definitely the next realistic step for grocery stores. I really like using them, as they allow me to put stuff directly into my bags as I go. I think a further improvement on a system like that would be to use the cheap RFID tech (UHF EPC) so that when you walk through the anti-theft barriers, the system knows exactly what you got, and then there's no need to scan a…

Scanning with your phone camera sucks its very slow and scanning as you pass the anti theft barriers normalizes running the barriers which will make catching thieves basically impossible. It also runs contra to shoppers expectations. Raises the question of charging the wrong person when multiple phones are nearby as when multiple people are shopping together or just adjacent to one another or when carts are just too close to the barriers. It also assumes that reading is instant and faultless when its not and fails to support anyone who wanders in from the street without an account set up expecting normal payment options. This makes it suitable for a membership club which expects to set up payment as part of setting up membership and useless for the 99% of stores that don't work like that.

Why not wait a few years until even a can of beans has an rfid tag, put a rfid tag in 4 corners of the cart. You should be able to compute which tags are within the bounds of the cart and allow you to pay.

The hardware to read the tags is still too expensive to put in the carts and not liable to be available as part of everyone's phones that soon so the easiest thing to do is retain the existing self checkouts and just skip the part where you scan anything. Roll up to the front. Tap your prominently displayed cart number or numbers tap your card done.

Reducing checkout to 6 seconds from multiple minutes will obviate the new loathsome situation where you actually wait in line to self checkout and will be close enough to normal procedures that it should be easy to transition to.

Re: Amazon ditches 'just walk out' checkouts at its grocery stores

#96

Post by hot_gril »

realusername wrote: post #83
_xivi wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We've had that in France for years, and noone uses that as far as I can tell. Why not? what makes it unpopular?

You have to remember every time to scan what you get which is a bit annoying and tedious. And then if you are unlucky you hit a random "let's recheck everything" at the cashier which nullifies all the work that you have done.

Same reason I usually don't go to self-checkout.

Re: Amazon ditches 'just walk out' checkouts at its grocery stores

#97

Post by t0mas88 »

PodgieTar wrote: post #56
noodlesUK wrote: post #6

I think that the scan-as-you-shop style systems are definitely the next realistic step for grocery stores. I really like using them, as they allow me to put stuff directly into my bags as I go. I think a further improvement on a system like that would be to use the cheap RFID tech (UHF EPC) so that when you walk through the anti-theft barriers, the system knows exactly what you got, and then there's no need to scan a…

Albert Heijn does this in the Netherlands, tied to your loyalty card. You can even import your shopping list and show it on the little hand scanners. At the end, you scan your loyalty card and it shows up on the self checkout. I think it’s great, I get to go around the shop with a little laser gun.

Yes it's great. Put everything straight in your bag, no packing at the end.

The only thing I don't like is that they have added the option to the machines to scan all your things there instead of using the portable scanner. Which in my area has resulted in queues at the self checkout... Which used to be very quick when it was only used for the portable scanners.

Re: Amazon ditches 'just walk out' checkouts at its grocery stores

#98

Post by fsckboy »

michaelt wrote: post #57
saddist0 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't that bad an idea. Imagine that next time you are drunk, you can hire a driver who will drive you back home remotely (along with some AI to stop the car in case connection goes away).

The grocery industry generally has pretty low margins. Wal-Mart's profit margin is 2.39%. If you go into a grocery shop to grab lunch, spending $8 on 4 items, and they make 5 cents of profit per item? They need to run an extremely lean operation. Or target price-insensitive customers, I suppose.

>They need to run an extremely lean operation.

they simply need to run a good ordering/inventory system. If they sell every item (on average) in each store every week, that's 2.39% return on the value of the inventory investment each week, or 52*.0239 or over 100% annual return on money they borrow for free because the store pays its grocery bills to suppliers in arrears, net 10 days, etc

Re: Amazon ditches 'just walk out' checkouts at its grocery stores

#99

Post by noodlesUK »

kube-system wrote: post #68
noodlesUK wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing, the same as current self-checkout systems. You can already easily just put stuff in your pocket or ring expensive items up as incorrect, cheaper things. I suspect shops have done a risk analysis and decided that they'd prefer to have more shoplifting and fewer staff.

I doubt the relationship between the rate of shoplifting and ease of shoplifting is anywhere close to linear. Even before self-checkouts existed, people still shoplifted. And in some places, the honor system even works much of the time.

> I doubt the relationship between the rate of shoplifting and ease of shoplifting is anywhere close to linear.

I'm sure you're right. I suspect that there are massive variations from shop location to shop location, even within a region. I also suspect there are different kinds of shoplifting. I remember hearing a friend who is not the kind of person to just pocket an item and leave, bragging about ringing up protein powder from a bulk dispenser as flour to save money. That kind of behaviour is definitely going to be hard to model.

Re: Amazon ditches 'just walk out' checkouts at its grocery stores

#100

Post by MisterBastahrd »

Ajay-p wrote: post #80

I recently finished a book called "The Secret Life of Groceries" by Benjamin Lorr. Amazing book. I learned that grocery and supermarket stores of the past, seemed to have worked very hard to give the best customer experience possible. Today it feels that customer experience has been replaced by cost cutting. Self checkout has been rife with problems, internally and socially, but supermarkets keep pushing them. I can…

One of the various jobs I had during the 90s to put myself through college was stocking store shelves in a large grocery store. During my time there, I placed every item on the shelf by hand, rotated forward, so that the shelves were easy to front and look respectable by the time the morning came. After a few months, it was fairly easy to eyeball an item in the case, lift it while rotating, and place it on the shelf facing forward. It also became reflex to hear something fall and catch it without looking. We also mopped the entire store by hand, twice, before getting down to the business of fronting the shelves one final time.

As time went on, they hired a cleaning crew to clean the floors with a machine. They'd miss things. After my time, they started having their employees cut boxes and just plop entire boxes onto store shelves, ripping the fronts off of them. I'm sure it saves a little bit of time, but you end up with a store that is a complete mess full of discarded cardboard. All of that adds up to a terrible customer experience.

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