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You can't leak users' data if you don't hold it

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Re: You can't leak users' data if you don't hold it

#91

Post by filleduchaos »

travisjungroth wrote: post #53
filleduchaos wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm rather baffled at this level of nitpicking. Yes, if the software was being written by completely different people with completely different goals they might then start to acquire user data but what does that have to do with the point (that data this team and this management don't have cannot be leaked)?

Because their current solution doesn’t meet their own stated goals. > even if we are competent enough to prevent a leak from ever happening, and even if our users trust us to do what we say, we must be resilient to being strong-armed by a future controlling power (e.g. if someone we don't trust buys us) They could be strong armed into collecting data and then handing it over.

And you as a customer can simply stop using their services if you no longer trust their intentions and (and this is a very clear and straightforward point) the company and the new controlling power would have nothing on you. Because it did not exist in the first place.

Why are so many of you so keen for them to be "wrong"? Like what even is the alternative approach here supposed to be? Don't build a product in the first place?

Re: You can't leak users' data if you don't hold it

#92

Post by filleduchaos »

photonthug wrote: post #63
travisjungroth wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because their current solution doesn’t meet their own stated goals. > even if we are competent enough to prevent a leak from ever happening, and even if our users trust us to do what we say, we must be resilient to being strong-armed by a future controlling power (e.g. if someone we don't trust buys us) They could be strong armed into collecting data and then handing it over.

Is there any kind of legal promise that could be made and not rescinded by the board, not swept away by mergers and acquisitions? I assume not but that’s almost what is needed here more than a software architecture fix which, no matter how well designed, is only as stable as the whims of internal stakeholders.

Legal promises don't enforce themselves.

Re: You can't leak users' data if you don't hold it

#94

Post by Retric »

albumen wrote: post #42
throwawaysleep wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Users didn’t consider them just fine, as they immediately abandoned them when given the chance.

That doesn't mean it's not harming them. Have addicts made the right choice by indulging their weakness?

New and fun isn't the same as addictive.

We don't consider people watching TV, listing to the radio, or reading books as addicts yet people decried each of them as they became ever more popular for ruining the youth etc. People like stimulation and seem to indulge when it's new, but most people also get used to it relatively quickly.

Re: You can't leak users' data if you don't hold it

#95

Post by fvdessen »

jmward01 wrote: post #10

I agree with the core idea, avoid saving info so you can't ever leak it. I personally think our legal framework should be based on consequences to encourage this mentality more. If you are hacked I don't care even a little that you did everything right, I just care that my information got taken. You should be held liable even if you did what the industry thought was right.

This is exactly what the GDPR is all about btw.

Re: You can't leak users' data if you don't hold it

#96

Post by canadiantim »

Affric wrote: post #57
mooreds wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> avoid saving info so you can't ever leak it I think that this is a good idea. It's similar to the principle of least privilege: keep only what you need to offer the service you are providing. Less risk for the provider, less risk for the consumer. However, at least in the USA, I've noticed an increasing number of companies who have determined that personal data is worth good money. This is why most stores have rewa…

I am still waiting for digital identity. Not sure why I can’t authenticate myself with these companies based on a private key and any details they want be disclosed to them for whatever reason don’t just come ephemerally from my server. Obviously, you could also have a third party acting in this space for the non-tech savvy. Right now all my data is held by corporate types who don’t give a shit.

For a third party acting in this space who could provide a server for the non-tech savvy, what do you think the ideal setup is, infrastructure and architecture wise?

Re: You can't leak users' data if you don't hold it

#97

Post by ryan_lane »

mooreds wrote: post #55
jmward01 wrote: post #10

I agree with the core idea, avoid saving info so you can't ever leak it. I personally think our legal framework should be based on consequences to encourage this mentality more. If you are hacked I don't care even a little that you did everything right, I just care that my information got taken. You should be held liable even if you did what the industry thought was right.

> avoid saving info so you can't ever leak it I think that this is a good idea. It's similar to the principle of least privilege: keep only what you need to offer the service you are providing. Less risk for the provider, less risk for the consumer. However, at least in the USA, I've noticed an increasing number of companies who have determined that personal data is worth good money. This is why most stores have rewa…

> I don't have any insight into how they use the data, but why would they offer free things (restaurants offer appetizers, grocery stores offer discounts, etc) unless the value they received was more than the cost of the incentive?

Ignoring selling the data to brokers, it's not hard to think of some ways to use the data that's beneficial to both you and them:

- Inventory management: You buy something low demand, but you do it consistently. If they can match up all the purchases of that item to specific folks, and they know the general frequency at which people buy that item, they can ensure it's stocked when you need it, without the need to greatly overstock it. If you stop coming, they also know they may be able to reduce that stock safely.

- Price sensitivity: They do a price increase. Which customers have stopped purchasing the product? Do they need to do a sale on the item for you to purchase it again? Do they need to drop the price? This is more of a benefit on their side than yours, but knowing the most frequent purchasers stopped purchasing it due to an increase could lead to a decrease, where this is harder to determine without good data.

- How effective are their sales? Are they targeting them correctly?

The discount they offer isn't really a discount. It's a price hike for folks without the loyalty program.

Re: You can't leak users' data if you don't hold it

#98

Post by _heimdall »

jmward01 wrote: post #10

I agree with the core idea, avoid saving info so you can't ever leak it. I personally think our legal framework should be based on consequences to encourage this mentality more. If you are hacked I don't care even a little that you did everything right, I just care that my information got taken. You should be held liable even if you did what the industry thought was right.

I agree with the sentiment here, but I'm not sure how that could ever really be implemented.

Our laws shouldn't punish people for honestly doing the best they know how to, especially with a caveat that it doesn't matter if it was industry standard. Not only is that confusing and at serious risk of punishing all the wrong people, it creates incentives to help hack your competition and throw them to the legal wolves.

Re: You can't leak users' data if you don't hold it

#100

Post by travisjungroth »

photonthug wrote: post #63
travisjungroth wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because their current solution doesn’t meet their own stated goals. > even if we are competent enough to prevent a leak from ever happening, and even if our users trust us to do what we say, we must be resilient to being strong-armed by a future controlling power (e.g. if someone we don't trust buys us) They could be strong armed into collecting data and then handing it over.

Is there any kind of legal promise that could be made and not rescinded by the board, not swept away by mergers and acquisitions? I assume not but that’s almost what is needed here more than a software architecture fix which, no matter how well designed, is only as stable as the whims of internal stakeholders.

I think you could make the alerting louder. Hire an independent auditing firm and create some contract around what to do if they fail.

A closed source client is fundamentally incompatible with the claims they want to make.

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