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Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

learncodethehardway.org

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Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#91

Post by keithpeter »

Disclaimer: I was so impressed with Learn Python the Hard Way that I bought the hardback in the hope that Shaw gets a beer out of it. I've made it to Ch 11 and will finish the course when I get my students through their maths exams.

PS: Zed, magstep3 in TeX, please, I need glasses as it is.

Is it possible that there are degrees of code writing?

I publish my humble Web site using some bash scripts I hacked up to generate pages from markdown text then to generate the index and lftp the lot up to my Web server space. That is coding, but it is not software engineering or industrial strength. The system probably only makes sense to me.

I bodge together R scripts that produce interactive 2d plots I can use in maths teaching. Again not engineering but useful.

I'd like to be able to hack up some small apps for Ubuntu, just silly front ends for things. The 'developer story' as Shuttleworth puts it is not too far ahead yet, so I'll have to get my head around Python/Glade. I'm reading my way through the Pyroom code and scratching my head a lot. I think that is getting closer to trade school coding but I'm no credible threat to a proper coder and have no intention of being.

Does HN collectively think there is a valid space for end user coding as in the BASIC days? If you want to get philosophical, is there space for bricollage as well as architecture?

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#92

Post by parfe »

B-Con wrote: post #70

He really missed Jeff's point. This was a terrible piece. > Currently, Jeff Attwood has a piece where he tells you to not learn to code. I wonder if he's going to tell his kids they shouldn't learn to code when they want to become just like Daddy? Probably not. He'll gleefully run over and show them how to code and tell them it's so much fun and that they should all do it and it's the best thing ever! But, of course,…

Perhaps Jeff should have chosen a better title. Perhaps Jeff should have chosen a better example than of a man late in his career path holding a highly specialized job an ultra-majority of people will never hold.

I'm sure Bloomberg would have loved to know how to code back in his trading days. Of course Jeff can't see a reason a financial trader would want to trade.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#93

Post by Produce »

rmATinnovafy wrote: post #42

I've always believed that one should not use labels. They are self imposed limits. Writing computer programs is not something out of the ordinary. Sure, it is applied math, but it is not quantum physics. I want people to learn. The more people know to code, the more innovation we will all enjoy. There is a generation that is growing up with the power of computing. This is a first in history. We (as a race) will be ab…

>Sure, it is applied math, but it is not quantum physics.

Quantum physics, and all other forms of physics are applied math.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#94

Post by dodava »

zedshaw wrote: post #5
neokya wrote: post #3

I learned to code from your book Zed. I was disappointed by Jeff's article (Who is usually a nice man). You wrote this post at a right time with right points. My appreciation is triple-folded. Take a bow, Zed.

Thanks, it's actually something I've been meaning to write about for a while, so Jeff just gave me a good reason. :-)

In another reply you questioned people's level of English comprehension. Did you read anything but the headline of Jeff's post? If so, you are the one with the reading comprehension problem because your entire rant has nothing to do with any of the points Jeff was making in his post.

Of course that doesn't matter to you. You got to create a sensational headline and a fiery rant to please your fanboys.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#95

Post by nboshart »

prayag wrote: post #77
zedshaw wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not refuting his statement that programming is or is not a life skill. My opinion on the matter is demonstrated in my work. I'm refuting his statement that other people should not become programmers, and that only a few chosen few should. Even though he doesn't say those very words, that's what he's saying. The resentment comes from me talking to many programmers who say the same thing. Consider it a guess about…

>I'm refuting his statement that other people should not become programmers, and that only a few chosen few should. But Atwood didn't say that. All he said was that it's a trade like Plumbing and not a life skill like being able to read. >The resentment comes from me talking to many programmers who say the same thing. But programmers DON'T mostly say that. In fact, I had a very animated discussion with Randy Stross o…

But it IS a life skill. It's not comparable to reading or writing maybe, but it is comparable to financial planning. People don't learn to write budgets properly so they go broke. People don't know how computers work, even just the basics, but operate these machines every day as part of their work and their home life. Knowing how to use a command line to look for viruses, how to monitor your home network, or even what a bit of code looks like - enormously useful skills that make you a more savvy, thoughtful, and protected citizen.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#96

Post by zedshaw »

sasha-dv wrote: post #76
zedshaw wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You confuse self-interest with hypocrisy. I am definitely self-interested and openly admit it, but I try not to be a hypocrite. For example, I think people should spend their lives learning new things. After I write a few more comments on HN, I'm going to grab my guitar and go learn a new scale. :-)

So, your motive for attack on Jeff is self-interest? edit: an elaboration I'm trying to figure out what exactly Jeff wrote that you hate so much. You don't even consider his arguments, you just have "a guess about Jeff, and a general message about other people who feel the same way." Jeff wouldn't write something like this: "Don't listen to the hipsters who claim that coding is as vital as reading, and who claim that…

I believe it is a vital skill, but that it's not being taught well enough so that's why people don't think it is. The same could be said about nearly everything we teach in K-12 at some point in the subject's history.

Also, it's not an attack, it's a counter-attack. People really need to get their order of events in the right order of events.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#97

Post by Produce »

dbecker wrote: post #88
Produce wrote: post #81

Why does everyone pay so much attention to what people like Jeff Atwood and Joel Spolsky have to say? Looking at Jeff's resume, he has had all of two jobs in his professional life, one of which was given to him by himself. Joel's resume is similar, a few low profile jobs (MS was not notable back then) then one given to himself. From experience in the industry, it's pretty clear that programmers who stay in one spot f…

Even if you generally trust Linus more than Jeff, on this particular issue people are criticizing Jeff for being too harsh on beginners. Linus is consistently a harsher critic than Jeff.

I never criticized Jeff for being harsh, I only used a logical fallacy (an inverse appeal to authority - what is this called?) to disclaim his opinions. In reality, I don't think that it's right to white-wash the issue and say that none of his opinions hold weight, that's simply not true. I do, however, think that his opinion is massively overrated since there is a correlation between being correct and having relevant experience in something. But that's just my opinion.

Not to mention that they are harsh in different ways. Jeff is advocating being harsh to people who don't know what they're doing and admit as much. Linus grills people who step into his kitchen and don't know how to hold a knife. Apples and oranges.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#98

Post by erso »

zedshaw wrote: post #86
prayag wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I'm refuting his statement that other people should not become programmers, and that only a few chosen few should. But Atwood didn't say that. All he said was that it's a trade like Plumbing and not a life skill like being able to read. >The resentment comes from me talking to many programmers who say the same thing. But programmers DON'T mostly say that. In fact, I had a very animated discussion with Randy Stross o…

The title says "Please don't learn to code". The rest of the post is just more of that in different words. Wow, alright I'm just going to stop replying to people who can't even read the title, but still claim it's not saying what it says.

I stopped reading your article once I realized you gave the title precedence over the content.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#99

Post by dbecker »

zedshaw wrote: post #85
B-Con wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a terrible post. He wildly exaggerates Jeff's statements and completely misses the point of it, which was not in any way "no one should learn to program", but rather "don't learn specialized skill sets you don't need". Jeff's point focused on whether programming was the best path to solving a problem for most people, and whether they would actually gain anything from it. His main argument was that programming…

The title says "Please don't learn to code". Holy crap, how can so many smart people be so incredibly bad at reading comprehension.

The title was meant as an attention grabber, but the text does not suggest that NO ONE should learn to code. The text only disputes that EVERYONE should learn to code.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#100

Post by zedshaw »

jilebedev wrote: post #89
zedshaw wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should, then give it to me so I can sort out the comments that don't add to the discussion, but keep the replies telling people they aren't adding to the discussion.

> comments that don't add to the discussion Atwood: > don't advocate learning to code just for the sake of learning how to code. Shaw: > Never listen to people who try to make beginners feel like losers The OP here is non sequitur at best and strawman at worst. Certainly not a model for constructive contribution to a conversation. The entire affair from here seems to be a nearly-pointless dramatic back-and-forth betw…

Actually, a strawman argument is quoting things out of context to make your point.
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