Google: Angular and Wiz Are Merging • Hacker News Board

Re: Google: Angular and Wiz Are Merging

#91

Post by agotterer » Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 2:53 PM UTC

Workaccount2 wrote: post #88

agotterer wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GCP is struggling? Is that an opinion based on experience or based on actual stats? Because GCP revenue has increased every year since 2017. AWS and Azure are capturing more market share. But I’m not sure I consider third place and $33B in revenue last year a struggle.[1] > I just don't think Sundar is the right person to do it That was sort of my point. Does Google need to be turned around? All stock metrics and rev…

Google is in the familiar position where there numbers are good, the charts are all pretty, but when you go put your ear to the ground, you only hear sounds of trouble. If google had proper leadership, the company would easily be worth twice it's current value. Easily . Instead we have a situation where raw capitalist inertia is carrying the company forward, while active discussions of the company are ridden with gri…

You make a good point about the possibility that they could be even more successful with stronger leadership and product focus. I can’t argue with that and don’t disagree.

My points were focused on the fact that the data just doesn’t currently show Google failing or declining as a company.

It’s going to be really interesting to see how the Google AI strategy plays out. I agree that they could have absolutely been the leader. They had the money, resources, and ingredients to make it happen.

I believe that AI is a threat to their current business model. How much did that influence their investment and focus on it?

Re: Google: Angular and Wiz Are Merging

#92

Post by bheadmaster » Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 2:54 PM UTC

pjmlp wrote: post #83

bheadmaster wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are several features that can be considered neat on their own. Most of those features are probably derived from other languages, but together they form a very powerful language that simply takes away the pain that I feel using other modern languages, such as C++, Python, Java and NodeJS. Here are a few on top of my head: 1) CSP concepts embedded deeply into the language (goroutines/channels/select) making concu…

1) Modula-2, Active Oberon, Erlang 2) .NET, Java, Smalltalk, Common Lisp 3) Any compiled language until the mid-1990's. 4) Amsterdam Compilers Toolkit, 1980 5) Until the repo changes, forbids distribution of binary libraries 6) Standard ML, Caml Light, OCaml, Haskell,... 7) Turbo Pascal on CP/M, MS-DOS computers running at 7 MHz, with 640KB.

If your post is intended to be a remark on how nothing in Go is "revolutionary", please read the first paragraph of my post, and notice how there isn't a single language in your list which is in all 7 categories.

Additionally:

- Erlang does not implement CSP, it implements Actor model

- Java does NOT have all the listed features included in its default toolkit - hence the existence of Gradle, Maven and all other packaging/testing/benchmarking solutions

- The "until mid 1990's" is the keyword here - I'm talking about modern languages and I explicitly pointed that out

- ACT is not part of any language, it is an external tool that may or may not be reliable, but definitely does not have toolchain/standard library level of quality/stability guarantee.

- "Until the repo changes" - packages can disappear from any system, see leftpad incident

- "forbids distribution of binary libraries" - not true, see [0]

[0] https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nr-TQHw_er6GOQRsF6T43GGh...

---

However, if I have misread your tone, and your post was intended to be an informative list of languages Go was inspired by, then thanks for the information. But some of it is misleading or false.

Re: Google: Angular and Wiz Are Merging

#93

Post by chuckadams » Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 2:59 PM UTC

usui wrote: post #89

chuckadams wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does appear I was wrong about the "until recently" bit: Angular still doesn't have a single-file component format like Vue or Svelte. Of course you can stick templates in string literals (and IDEA will even treat them as angular templates). Just be prepared to escape your quotes I guess. The official tutorial still uses separate files, and the tooling defaults to them too. Honestly the real shame is that IDEs don'…

Isn't dealing with bare string literals for HTML-like syntax a terrible developer experience?

Not as much in Jetbrains IDEs: it detects the string is HTML and highlighting, formatting, and mode-specific functionality all just work inside the string. In an Angular source file, all the template properties like "ng-if" autocomplete too, not sure if any code completion inside props works though (it doesn't with the AngularJS 1.x I just tested, but that's a different plugin that's probably less capable). Have to be careful about escaping the outermost quotes too if you use them in the template. So not exactly terrible, but still a little bit janky.

Re: Google: Angular and Wiz Are Merging

#94

Post by refulgentis » Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 3:01 PM UTC

It's hard to ask this without sounding like a jerk: does this matter to anyone externally?

When I was still at Google, the web dev I knew who was in touch with outside stuff, talked about Angular as if its day had passed

Re: Google: Angular and Wiz Are Merging

#95

Post by bzzzt » Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 3:02 PM UTC

adrianmsmith wrote: post #59

twelfthnight wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear "revolutionary" claimed about languages like Rust, Haskell and Zig, but rarely about Go. What about Golang is revolutionary to you?

The way concurrency works is pretty unique amongst mainstream languages. Java has just copied some parts of how concurrency works in Go, but that's nearly 20 years after Go was released. It's extremely easy to start up code concurrently with "go foo()". You can start up lots of such functions concurrently, as it works in userspace. Like async code, but no "colored functions" problem.

> but that's nearly 20 years after Go was released.

Go 1.0 was released in 2012.

Re: Google: Angular and Wiz Are Merging

#96

Post by ecmascript » Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 3:06 PM UTC

tashoecraft wrote: post #55

ecmascript wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't care so much about the syntax but rather the over reliance on the subscriber pattern that you have to have like a subscriber to even read something as fundamental as query params. And the funny thing is that is will fire once and then again when the query params is actually set. So you will have an empty fire for when they are not yet set for some strange reason, presumably from when the observer is created.…

Sounds more like a misunderstanding of the framework and observables. The problem many faced with angular is they chose not to learn observables, then got angry. If you have different subscribers, all on the same state change, you may not have chosen to use ShareReplay, or filter, or bothered to use a tool like ngrx that has memoized selectors. The same problem you're complaining about is the same thing people in the…

Well perhaps, but I think it's so overly complex and verbose to the point that learning it and making sure that everyone working on the project is on the same level is hard or near to impossible.

I really tried to learn RxJS, I used a lot of different methods like filter and what not but I still got into a huge amount of issues but honestly a lot of that was because angular was not really fit for the type of application we were trying to build. Especially as we relied heavily on query params for state. There were many strange behaviors of Angular Router that I ran into several times. It has some kind of own internal state and fires updates in an unexpected way. I remember sitting hours just to try to get the query params to update correctly and I was not the only one having these kinds of issues.

Even if I agree useEffect is unnecessary complex, it's still far far away from being as complex as RxJS and Angular. I remember I was trying to add some pipe service or whatever it was called and it was near to impossible to achieve what I wanted to do which would be trivial in any other framework/vanilla JS (unfortunately I don't remember what it was).

Then using third party stuff in Angular is a nightmare as well. You have to deep dive into how it's being built to make sure all the stuff is brought into the build step etc. The configuration is a nightmare if you want to do something special like making use of Angular Elements that's barely documented at all.

I never got to use the Signals feature, because I left the company before it got introduced into Angular.

Re: Google: Angular and Wiz Are Merging

#97

Post by neonsunset » Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 4:27 PM UTC

adrianmsmith wrote: post #59

twelfthnight wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear "revolutionary" claimed about languages like Rust, Haskell and Zig, but rarely about Go. What about Golang is revolutionary to you?

The way concurrency works is pretty unique amongst mainstream languages. Java has just copied some parts of how concurrency works in Go, but that's nearly 20 years after Go was released. It's extremely easy to start up code concurrently with "go foo()". You can start up lots of such functions concurrently, as it works in userspace. Like async code, but no "colored functions" problem.

Quoting "colored functions" is a problem of skill. It is a tell of engineer's lack of understanding of concurrency.

Re: Google: Angular and Wiz Are Merging

#98

Post by mgechev » Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 4:39 PM UTC

Hey everyone, I'm working on this at Google and would be happy to answer your questions :)

The tldr; is that we see a lot of similar requirements from developers across Angular and Wiz, so we're looking for opportunities to reuse work. Good example is the Angular Signals library that's now used in all the YouTube Mobile Web. In a similar way, Angular is bringing more fine-grained code loading that Wiz offers.

Over time, we'll continue focusing on what's best for developers and incorporating the best from Wiz in Angular, and vice versa. At the end we can end up with one framework, or continue to coexist.

In the next couple of weeks we'll follow up with a blog post that explains our plan in more details.

Re: Google: Angular and Wiz Are Merging

#99

Post by mgechev » Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 4:42 PM UTC

lakomen wrote: post #70

I've been working with Angular for 2 years, then moved to Vue and have been with it for, idk 3-4 years now. I like the theory of Angular, the modularity, the way it works, but I HATE rxjs and the complexity of it. And the whole thing on top of rxjs, ngrx. You can't just simply take one value and compare it, no you have to use pipes and rxjs. Also there's an Angular discord and they're very hostile towards anyone not…

>...but I HATE rxjs and the complexity of it. And the whole thing on top of rxjs, ngrx. You can't just simply take one value and compare it, no you have to use pipes and rxjs.

We're working on making RxJS optional. In v17.3 `@angular/core` no longer has a dependency on RxJS. In the long-term we'll enable a path forward without RxJS for other core modules as well.

That said, we're providing an interop package that enables even better RxJS support for people who make the decision to use it.

Re: Google: Angular and Wiz Are Merging

#100

Post by benmccann » Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 4:44 PM UTC

pier25 wrote: post #72

This is great. Angular is getting partial hydration (seems automatic from the keynote but it's not clear) and deferred views which are like components that don't load until something happens (eg entering the viewport). Performance has increased considerably too thanks to the use of signals. Honestly I'm quite impressed. I wish Svelte had partial hydration but the team keeps arguing against it.

We're not arguing against it, but simply haven't committed to doing or not doing it as Svelte 5 has been higher priority. We would rather be deliberative than introduce a feature where we don't have the developer experience fully thought out. We want to understand what the experience would be for Svelte users both with and without SvelteKit and have good guidance around the trade-offs of different rendering modes.