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Boeing ousts 737 MAX chief

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Re: Boeing ousts 737 MAX chief

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the MD acquisition didn't happen in a vacuum. At the time Airbus was becoming a government-backed behemoth, and the US government was allocating all of their political capital and military procurement at MD. So the whole point of acquiring MD was to get more favorable government treatment. What followed was not necessarily even about cost-cutting - they wanted to spread out the production of their aircraft from…

Isn't it wondrous what lobbying can do?

If you have a weed problem, I'm not sure it's worthwhile to blame the weeds. There's a higher level problem here with how government procurement and tax structures works, and just with how incentives are aligned this kind of stuff is bound to happen regardless of whether lobbying is explicitly allowed or not.

Re: Boeing ousts 737 MAX chief

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess I am a bit confused. Someone was supposed to be checking the bolts before the plane left the facility and they didn't. That seems to be a QC process issue more than a QA issue. But that also seems like splitting hairs. The problem is not one of engineering design, to OP's post.

I disagree somewhat. It should not be possible for a plane to leave the factory without completing all QC checks. People are fallible, so a robust process is critical, and designing/confirming a robust QC process is a QA responsibility.

Sure, but "did the plane leave with all of the bolts it was supposed to" does not seem like a question that needs to be answered by someone with mechanical engineering degree. Let alone the responsibility of someone sitting in a cubicle in Everett.

Re: Boeing ousts 737 MAX chief

#94
post #53

Ablative management: Layered heat shield of dispensable people that burn off to protect the capsule with the execs.

This is the job description for the CSO (chief security officer): Get fired when the inevitable security breach occurs .

No it is not.

Breaches can happen for many reasons, from we do not give a fuck to everyone knows and have accepted the situation.

The job of the CSO is to bring things on the table even when they are not nice to hear, provide a solution and recommend priorities.

When well documented it is a good bottom protector.

Re: Boeing ousts 737 MAX chief

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The person you are quoting did not express approval of Jack Welch. You are being downvoted for being unnecessarily argumentative and inflamatory, not for being wrong.

Argumentative? I agreed that he was a jackass with a pithy comment about spelling. Inflammatory? What else do you call a clown that would spit on his own mother for a nickel? Point taken, but FFS. The man was a grand mal asshole and that should be mentioned every time his name appears.

You aren’t contributing to the conversation by going on a tirade.

Re: Boeing ousts 737 MAX chief

#97

Ablative management: Layered heat shield of dispensable people that burn off to protect the capsule with the execs.

I get the sentiment, but I much prefer this to the alternative, which is rank and file employees getting laid off. It’s much better to have accountability that starts at the top and then trickles down. Too often it feels like workers are the only ones who suffer from the bad decisions of executive leadership.

But it doesn't start at the top, it starts at the middle.

Re: Boeing ousts 737 MAX chief

#98
post #6

Steps in the right direction, let's get rid of more engineers and replace them with more MBAs. > However, a person familiar with the decision and who asked not to be identified commenting on sensitive personnel decisions, confirmed that Clark’s leaving was not voluntary. > Clark is an engineer. His successor Ringgold has business degrees. However she began her aviation career performing avionics systems maintenance a…

I've mentioned it somewhere else, and maybe I've just been really unlucky with my experiences in industry but I'm at the point where I feel like someone with an MBA or finance background should start any new company (regardless of previous experience) by sitting in the janitor's closet for a month. If the janitor says they're ok, the MBA can start following the janitor around at a distance of 10 feet. If they don't s…

This is the completely and utterly insufferable mindset that one gets when they spend too much time around other engineers and actually begins to buy into the completely fabricated self-important narrative that they are God’s gift to the world. It s a profession! Pull your head in. I’m not sure what sort of highschool bully trauma you’re trying to make up for, but being a bully yourself isn’t the answer. Interest rate rises couldn’t come soon enough, because there’s obviously at least one generation of techies that have been tricked into thinking that ‘finance’ starts and ends with “take a bunch of dumb VC money, build a completely unsustainable business, and change jobs every 18 months”.

I’m not for one second saying that Boeing hasn’t been seriously mismanaged. The whole debacle has just inexplicably been some sort of lightning rod for people that want to flex their self-identified nerd cred by saying “ENGINEER GOOD BUSINESS BAD!”

Re: Boeing ousts 737 MAX chief

#99
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely, but systemically, that's not been their problem. Too many MBAs are making decisions without Engineering involvement. I know because my industry works the exact same way le rage

this is because shareholders (pension and investment fund managers) are all MBAs and they demand results a-la "quick wins" that forces management into short-term thinking, cutting corners and cutting costs

The MO of ‘business people’ isn’t inherently ‘quick wins, bleed the company dry’. I have absolutely no idea why techies can be so precious about every problem in their profession actually being a ‘systems problem’ yet are so quick to personally blame each and every person in another profession based on some ‘YouTube video essay’-level understanding of the context.

As usual, it IS a system’s issue. It’s an incentive issue. If the people that made decisions were incentivised to prioritise long-term stability and performance, they would. They aren’t, and the reason they aren’t isn’t solved with a swift “get rid of them all”. You think that these big scary business people you demonise don’t themselves have KPIs? The pressure of corporate America, of short-term returns, is still going to be there. Have you seen how drastically the average shareholding lifespan has dropped over the last 10 years? Businesses are just operating in more of an environment where long-term stability and even growth don’t matter.

Boeing is such an easy target. It’s very easy to just lazily say “Boeing is rotten!” and leave it at that, because then you get to pretend that the solution is easier than it is. Whilst there are definitely Boeing-specific circumstances that heavily heavily contribute, the reality is that Boeing has had few chances to ‘innovate’ in recent memory, especially with its new makeup. This is just what it looks like when they do. The reality is that this is merely a reflection of how the wider world works. And that’s the thing with systems problems. It’s intellectually dishonest to just sit back and “blame MBAs”. These sorts of problems fester in the wiring and the mechanics, with unpredictable consequences that are almost impossible to reverse by the time they’re realised.

The wheels were set in motion before the Boeing merger. It wasn’t a trigger, it was a consequence. Similarly, some “MBAs” making decisions, either with Boeing or investors, were themselves not the trigger. Fate had already been decided several layers up the stack when personal and organisational incentives were set as they are in the first place.

Re: Boeing ousts 737 MAX chief

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is really hard. China, Russia and Japan have tried state sponsored schemes without success. Bombardier of Canada had to throw in the towel, and Embraer of Brazil almost did. Part of the problem is also that airlines have been very good at squeezing the duopoly while demanding ever more. The competition, if it manages to get a plane in the air, usually isn’t as fuel efficient and so the airlines have mostly not bee…

Russia and Japan failed, but it's far too early to call COMAC from China a failure.

I doubt it will ever be certified by any aviation authority outside of China, which will pretty much make it the tu204 of CN.
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