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28-ton, 1.2-megawatt tidal kite is now exporting power to the grid

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Re: 28-ton, 1.2-megawatt tidal kite is now exporting power to the grid

#91
post #31

How on earth can such a small device generate so much energy? Wouldn't 1.2 MW of power make it very brittle just like a real kite? Or else why not scale it up and make one 100 times larger that generates 120 MW of power? Since tidal currents are much more reliable (I think) than offshore wind it almost seem to good to be true. There has to be a catch.

> There has to be a catch.

I'd wonder how long it'll last; it's a very harsh environment.

That said, there's a lot of energy available.

It may be that lots of small units like this will be more practical than one big one.

Re: 28-ton, 1.2-megawatt tidal kite is now exporting power to the grid

#92
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The tides are always moving so this energy is much more useful as baseload energy. They will lessen the need for energy storage for wind and solar, making wind and solar even cheaper. So tidal doesn't actually have to be as cheap as wind and solar by itself, as it will lower the total cost of wind and solar and be economically viable as a part of the mix. If you're a company operating wind or solar, then you will be…

This system, as presented, will be really prone to *mechanical wear*. Maybe it can be done, but I need to see long-term (price & reliability) performance to believe it.

What type of mechanical wear are you thinking of?

I can think of a propeller and generator, but those are solved problems. This is just a boat with a propeller. Only instead of using the generator as an engine to spin the propeller, the tides spin the propeller which generates power in the generator.

Steering is also a solved boat problem.

Then there's the tether and anchor. This is the reason it swims in a figure 8, instead of it just being a propellar anchored straight to the seabed. So the "pulling" force is actually mostly to the sides instead of directly on the tether and anchor.

Re: 28-ton, 1.2-megawatt tidal kite is now exporting power to the grid

#93
post #56
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Same for solar if pea counting, but solar is really endless until the end of the solar system Imagine you wrap the Earth inside a sphere of perfectly efficient solar panels, that would be energetically troublesome! Every bit of solar panel we lay removes a bit of that overall energy flux; the question is then how much can we afford without detrimental impact. Essentially we dampen tides with these devices. Windmill…

I think you're assuming renewable means infinite. > - nuclear Nuclear isn't renewable, but there's a huge amount of it and it doens't have the same problems. > (and so the sun) is not renewable: The energy we get from it is. It's not a fixed resource that we're depleting. When we burn all the coal, it's gone . Tomorrow there will be more sunlight. We're not cutting chunks off of the sun to get energy for solar. > - f…

> I think you're assuming renewable means infinite.

No, for the purpose of this dumb exercise of mine, I mean the resource we use for energy production is replenishable.

> It's not a fixed resource that we're depleting.

What I mean is that the Sun is going to exhaust its H supply. We just happen to harvest part of its output, but it's depleting itself whether we harvest it or not, so we might as well do it :shrug:.

So at our scale it looks like infinite but in the strictest sense it's a consumable that does not replenish.

Fundamentally that makes it not different from nuclear fuel (whether heavy fissile ones or hydrogen if we manage fusion someday) which as you mention are in ample supply, yet we consider them to not be renewable while the sun would be? The only difference is a) the Sun is (much) bigger thus will last (much) longer and b) we delegate fuel logistics and fusion reaction to the sun.

But then again, trees are not really renewable, they got to get energy from somewhere to grow... IOW they're essentially CHO-based solar batteries.

As I said, I was not trying to make any point, just being extremely pedantic about semantics for fun ;)

> the definition of renewable

> A renewable resource (also known as a flow resource) is a natural resource which will replenish to replace the portion depleted by usage and consumption, either through natural reproduction or other recurring processes in a finite amount of time in a human time scale. When the recovery rate of resources is unlikely to ever exceed a human time scale, these are called perpetual resources

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_resource

Essentially the definition is focused on resource when it's really about time (esp. our extremely small time scale vs stellar scale). The resource in reality doesn't replenish, rather it's so huge that we can consider our usage of it well below rounding error. IOW from our very small "rounding error" human point of view it might as well be considered infinite.

Re: 28-ton, 1.2-megawatt tidal kite is now exporting power to the grid

#94
post #28

More renewable is good.. but there is always one fear in my crazy mind about these: This isn't actually renewable but taking energy out of a huge reservoir (Same for solar if pea counting, but solar is really endless until the end of the solar system).. and if we'd scale it massively the result could be another catastrophe. (Same btw. with geothermal?). (Btw.. I maybe got tidal wrong, so if it is just taking energy f…

It's good that you are aware it's a crazy thought :) Nothing wrong with looking into it though. Wikipedia offers: > Movement of tides causes a loss of mechanical energy in the Earth-Moon system: this results from pumping of water through natural restrictions around coastlines and consequent viscous dissipation at the seabed and in turbulence. This loss of energy has caused the rotation of the Earth to slow in the 4.5…

> at this rate the Earth will stop rotating in 50 billion years,

That's not what the link you posted says. It states that that's when the Earth-Moon system will be tidally locked, so that the Moon orbits the Earth at the same rate that the Earth rotates around its axis.

Kind of if the earth slowed so that one "day" took the equivalent of 28 days now. The earth would be locked with one side always facing the moon, so there would be no tides, but it would still be rotating. Except it will end up be a longer "day" than that, because as energy is transferred to the Moon its orbit is raised, which slows it down.

Re: 28-ton, 1.2-megawatt tidal kite is now exporting power to the grid

#95
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How often does this need maintenance though? Moving parts in salt water? Frequently. The positive thing about this design is that maintenance is potentially much easier than on an seafloor mounted turbine: if the tether is long enough, you can just make the craft surface next to a maintenance vessel with a small crane. No divers necessary, and no giant crane platforms like for offshore wind turbines, either.

> No divers necessary, and no giant crane platforms like for offshore wind turbines, either. This is critical to the economic viability of the project.

It's certainly one advantage.

I still worry about some of the technical aspects. The craft is going to pull it's own tether through the water behind/"under" it while it "flies" loops in the current at a speed faster than the current itself. That must induce quite a bit of drag, right? Especially because that tether is delivering several megawatts of electric power do the anchor, while holding all the mechanical load of that power being generated. That has to be a beefy cable. And the joints where that cable meets the craft and the anchor are moving parts, for all intents and purposes.

I also wonder how much the craft actually resembles a full submarine. Are there ballast tanks and ballast pumps for altitude control? Full set of diving and directional rudders? What happens when any of those fail?

Potential complexity is certainly higher than for an offshore wind turbine.

Re: 28-ton, 1.2-megawatt tidal kite is now exporting power to the grid

#96

More renewable is good.. but there is always one fear in my crazy mind about these: This isn't actually renewable but taking energy out of a huge reservoir (Same for solar if pea counting, but solar is really endless until the end of the solar system).. and if we'd scale it massively the result could be another catastrophe. (Same btw. with geothermal?). (Btw.. I maybe got tidal wrong, so if it is just taking energy f…

in the past twenty years the plains states like kansas and oklahoma began having earthquakes due to injection of petroleum wastewater into the ground. The government had to stop them because private industry literally does not care what gets destroyed

Re: 28-ton, 1.2-megawatt tidal kite is now exporting power to the grid

#97
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This system, as presented, will be really prone to *mechanical wear*. Maybe it can be done, but I need to see long-term (price & reliability) performance to believe it.

What type of mechanical wear are you thinking of? I can think of a propeller and generator, but those are solved problems. This is just a boat with a propeller. Only instead of using the generator as an engine to spin the propeller, the tides spin the propeller which generates power in the generator. Steering is also a solved boat problem. Then there's the tether and anchor. This is the reason it swims in a figure 8,…

That swinging tether immersed in saltwater(!) will have to work miracles.

Re: 28-ton, 1.2-megawatt tidal kite is now exporting power to the grid

#98
post #14

Since the number 1.2MW didn't mean much to me, modern on-shore wind turbines seem to supply 3-4MW and offshore ones 8 - 12MW. But this seems a lot easier to transport and install compared to cranes and the nightmare of navigating turbine blades on trucks through places. And if these hold up to water and don't cause too many problems for wildlife, there would be a lot less discussions about these "messing up my skylin…

It is also a completely different scale. A 11M wind turbine has a 200m (!) rotor diameter. This thing is 12m.

Re: 28-ton, 1.2-megawatt tidal kite is now exporting power to the grid

#99
post #55
post #14

Since the number 1.2MW didn't mean much to me, modern on-shore wind turbines seem to supply 3-4MW and offshore ones 8 - 12MW. But this seems a lot easier to transport and install compared to cranes and the nightmare of navigating turbine blades on trucks through places. And if these hold up to water and don't cause too many problems for wildlife, there would be a lot less discussions about these "messing up my skylin…

A kettle uses ~1.5KW, a geyser ~2KW, an oven ~5KW, a stove about ~3KW. These are fairly high estimates I got from some quick googling. If you add these all up, and account for some more appliances (HVAC, fridge/freezer etc.), I think it is safe to estimate that a household less than 20KW at peak, even though it is a fairly high estimate. So going backwards from there, 1.2MW = 1200KW and 1200KW / 20KW = 60 households…

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Re: 28-ton, 1.2-megawatt tidal kite is now exporting power to the grid

#100
post #67
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the average home was using 10kW constant it be using 240 kWh a day, which is enormously high. In terms of average usage an average sized home in the US is much closer to 50kWh a day, so roughly 2kW average demand. That would mean 1 MW is enough for 500 homes on average. The one thing that doesn’t is peak demand load, say when everyone gets home from work and turns everything on at the same time or a particularly c…

I’m really surprised by this data. In Poland, it’s around 2000 kWh/year, which is 6kWh/day - 5 times less!

Air conditioning makes up a big part of that, made worse by worse insulation and larger houses.

Of course Poland needs heating, but that doesn't show up in Electricity usage as most people heat with natural gas or oil.

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